To pop layers or not?

[darrelljs]

From reading comments, it seems people pop every dungeon that they can from the beginning of the game. I don't think my luck has been particularly bad, but I still stopped doing this after a couple of games. The odds of a bad pop and the resulting impact on the game makes the risk not worth the reward. In fact, I think Barbarian is a better trait now. I'll gleefully pop dungeons near an opponent; if I lose my unit to a stack of baddies it's more than made up when those baddies hamstring the AI opponent. A Barbarian leader is immune to this.

Darrell

 

[BugReportage]

All you need to defend against most lair pops is 2 warriors on your city. And I only mean low level lairs.
Most people have the bad habit of not leaving anyone on their city at the start of them game...

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

I've had a 7/8 gargoyle and an 8 strength ogre with a retinue of 4 lizardmen pop in the early game when I only had warriors before... I reloaded

 

[Sarisin]

I voted right away, but only when I am able to get to the lair. I find lair guards like Skeletons and Lizardmen appear very early in my games and I am unable to defeat them with Scouts or even Warriors for some time. I would like to see the lairs undefended for a certain period of time during early-game exploration. I think there are enough bad results in the lairs that you shouldn't have to fight your way to even have a chance at exploring.

Otherwise, you are only able to get 2-3 in a game. That's why I grab them when I can.

 

[KillerClowns]

Right away, often with a cry of "Big money... big money..." followed by the appropriate response (ranging from "aww, hell" to "hell yeah!").
The risks are greater in the early game, but an early reward multiplies exponentially. One great person in the early game can make a huge difference.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Always pop a lair if it is near ai territory and not yours, at least. You run the risk of losing a unit, but not a city or worker, and could get a really good reward. If you die, at least there is an experienced barb to harass your rivals.
Now it follows that if the ai followed this logic, then you would want to pop lairs outside but near your own borders, too, since if you don't they will, in which case you face bad outcomes without the chance at good ones.
Which would mean you always want to pop lairs not in anyone's borders. I think it's kind of a prisoner's dilemma situation.

Personally I try to wait a few dozen turns, because I want a shot at rare good, and even--especially--rare boss monster spawns.

 

[Zechnophobe]

I voted 'right away'. I'd agree in theory with Nikis about distance to AI's, if it weren't for the habit of the Barbs to now beeling various cities disregarding proximity.

 

[Caradoc]

The key, I think, is to approach lairs like you would in D&D -- take party with a mix of skills. The classic D&D party is Priest, Mage, Fighter, Thief. Obviously a Priest is nice so I can heal damage and deal with the various afflictions I might suffer. I also like to have an Adept with Charm to stop a mob attack or Haste to expedite my retreat. A Swordsman or Champion can provide a first line of defense, and an expendable Scout is a good choice to make the attempt. If the Scout lucks out and gets a nice promotion, I can always upgrade it.

 

[Kolath]

The key, I think, is to approach lairs like you would in D&D -- take party with a mix of skills. The classic D&D party is Priest, Mage, Fighter, Thief. Obviously a Priest is nice so I can heal damage and deal with the various afflictions I might suffer. I also like to have an Adept with Charm to stop a mob attack or Haste to expedite my retreat. A Swordsman or Champion can provide a first line of defense, and an expendable Scout is a good choice to make the attempt. If the Scout lucks out and gets a nice promotion, I can always upgrade it.

You actually have lairs left by the time you can field a priest, champion, and adept? What settings do you play on?

All my games so far, the lairs have been popped within the first 60 turns (quick speed)

 

[xienwolf]

Nice and easy solution is to explore with a unit you are quite willing to lose, or to fortify on the lair before you explore it so you have a nice defensive bonus when the bad men spawn. Won't always save your bacon, won't guarantee they bother to attack you. But it does help quite a bit.

 

[darrelljs]

Interesting...most people seem to be more aggressive than I am. I'll have to go back to auto popping for a while and see if it works out.

Darrell

P.S. Uh...I do know how to spell lair .

 

[arcticnightwolf]

I never find any dungeon ... but it can be caused by very advanced start and no exploration

 

[Caradoc]

You actually have lairs left by the time you can field a priest, champion, and adept? What settings do you play on?

All my games so far, the lairs have been popped within the first 60 turns (quick speed)

You should be asking what maps do I play on. Most often it is a Large Sto archipelago. There are plenty of Lairs around, since AIs do not seem to attack them outside their territories. I can see how they might be gone on a smaller map that fills up with cities. Swordsmen and Adepts, I get pretty early. Priests take longer, but I often push that way rather than toward Mages or Rangers.

 

[zup]

Well AI seems to be unable to grasp the concept of any land mass but its own until very, very late. So in archipelago maps there are more lairs later on.

 

[Sarisin]

Darrell

P.S. Uh...I do know how to spell lair .

It's OK Darrell, I think we all knew what you meant...although a few might have thought it was a thread on shooting chickens.

 

[Caradoc]

Well AI seems to be unable to grasp the concept of any land mass but its own until very, very late. So in archipelago maps there are more lairs later on.

On my maps players are not usually isolated on their own land masses. However, the land routes between them can be longer and these can be interrupted by barbarian cities. What I like about this set up is that you usually do not start to interact with the AI civs until after the barbarian rush, which lets them get on their feet before the wars start. A side effect is that the supply of Tribal Villages lasts longer than usual and you can sometimes get an advanced tech.

 

[Ksi]

The only thing I do not like coming out of lairs is where it makes the unit crazed (waters.) I pop asap though. No reloading. I popped one near the Bally capital once and after the boss wiped my troops out it captured the capital. =/

 

[onedreamer]

My choice isn't in the list and it's that I most often just don't pop them. From the first few games I played, the total outcome is that they are more often a bad result than a good one and that bad results are worse than good results are good
The experience I get from monsters from lairs (if that's what you meant with layers) is a better reward actually.

 

[onedreamer]

Always pop a lair if it is near ai territory and not yours, at least. You run the risk of losing a unit, but not a city or worker, and could get a really good reward. If you die, at least there is an experienced barb to harass your rivals.

I don't agree fully with this statement. There is no guarantee that spawned AIs will harass the AI you want to, and your unit may be more experienced than the spawned one, without mentioning all the bad events that could happen to it and that will not affect anyone else at all. Also, it seems to me that there is no mechanism to check for the experience of the unit exploring, which is what makes them totally unappealing to me.