Tolkien

[Fëanor]

Originally posted by Jason_Els

PS- Methinks Fëanor went to the Encyclopedia of Arda.....hmmmm.

hmm what is that? i never heard of it.... really i knew those names from memory allright im no good at lies.... yes i used that great site ... was only try to help do...

should i sing a Song that will inspire u all? (a song by Blind Guardian)

 

[Jason_Els]

Thuloid & Witchfinder: I would highly recommend getting your hands on Karen Wynn-Fonstad's "Atlas of Middle Earth". That book is amazingly complete and I consider it canonical even if a Tolkien didn't have a hand in it. Precise maps of all three ages and includes all kinds of geographical features. Would make mapmaking much easier.

Fëanor: That won't be necessary. Just stick to being your ornery self .

 

[God]

Well you don't need to go to Encyclopedia of Arda to get all that info. I hadn't heard of it, but reading the Silmarillion tells you all.

Like UTO3 is saying, maybe we should cut out Beleriand and Valinor and just do Middle Earth in the 3rd age.
We can do a 1st age mod later.

First age- Noldor houses divided but ruled by Finfolgin and his son Fingon. Turgon had Gondolin. Finrod had a big area. Feanor's sons got the north eastern part near Ard-Gladen.
Elwe aka. Thingol, Sindar elves had Doriath.
The dwarves of the Blue Mountains: Belegost etc.
Vanyar in Valinor. Teleri on islands between Valinor and Beleriand.
Dark Elves(Avari) in the east.
Morgoth- Angband and Utonumo(sp?)

Second age- Numenor island empire. Later made Gondor and Arnor.
Elves under Gil-Gilad had Iriador later became Arnor.
Dwarves dwelt in Moria.
Lorien also inhabited by elves.
Greenwood the great by green elves.
Mordor under Sauron.

Third Age-
Gondor
Rohan
Iron Hills and Lonely Mountain
Mirkwood aka. Greenwood.
Lorien
Mordor
Isengard
Rivendill


IMO third age seems the best. Simpler than the second age and first age would be to big.

 

[Beelzibub]

you missed off the Easerlings and Haradrim from your third age factions list.

i think that the earlier ages offer more scope to make a mod.
however, as you point out, they may be too complicated for our first attempts at scenarios.
The scenarios made for civ2 demonstrate how much fun a LotR game can be. The main problem is getting a balance between controlling a whole empire, and controlling the Fellowship itself.
I've been playing the civ2 scenario of this very website and got too bogged down in the war around Minas Tirith rather than the quest.
ah well...
just a thought

 

[Fëanor]

3RD age Middle Earth of The Lord of The Rings scenario?

 

[tcwonder3]

Did anyone locate the 3rd Age Map I mentioned earlier from a Spanish site? Also, how would I (if I can at all) convert a civ2 map into a civ3 one to experiment with? Feel free to contact me directly with an answer. I need more info on scenario creating (not just MOds), is there some consolidated info somewhere. I don't have time to read all these threads.
Also, the way I understand the Silmarillion, the jewels basically gave the High Elves the ability to have god-like powers of creation. For example, the ability to create in an inantimate, manufactured artifact, a life-force with "graftable(?) powers linking the artifact with the possessor or creator. Call-upon powers that otherwise would be uncontrollable in "Nature" but may exist under the precept of "what can be imagined can, therefore, somewhere (or when) exist." Similar to the "Earthpower" imbodied in the Land of Stephen Donaldson's "Thomas Covenant" series.

 

[Beowulf]

I'm going to start a scenario based on the LotR setting. Did anyone made some units i could possibly use. You will offcourse be mentioned in the readme file once the scenario is complete.

 

[Corvi #6]

Originally posted by tcwonder3
Also, the way I understand the Silmarillion, the jewels basically gave the High Elves the ability to have god-like powers of creation. For example, the ability to create in an inantimate, manufactured artifact, a life-force with "graftable(?) powers linking the artifact with the possessor or creator. Call-upon powers that otherwise would be uncontrollable in "Nature" but may exist under the precept of "what can be imagined can, therefore, somewhere (or when) exist." Similar to the "Earthpower" imbodied in the Land of Stephen Donaldson's "Thomas Covenant" series. [/B]

Well that certainly explains the 'destroy entier continent rather than embodiment of Darkness and Cold keep them' thing...


(hmmmmm..... absolute power.... *drool*...):crazyeyes

 

[Thuloid]

Originally posted by Witchfinder


As for some of the suggested Civ advances like "Orc Breeding" - I don't imagine the elves and dwarves would have much use for this advance. They need to be more general. Ring-Craft for example is a good choice. Mithril-Working would be another good one. I imagine most of the tech tree would be almost identical for the Ancient and Middle ages, although advances like Gunpowder would have a different effect (no musketmen).

There really isn't any need for different mods to represent different ages of Middle Earth - that's the whole point of Civ. It covers thousands of years.

As I posted earlier, I found a little trick which allows separate tech trees for different civs(Melkor-only tech, for example, which would include Orc Breeding). The tech is totally unavailable to other civs. Some techs (most, in fact) will still be available to everybody.

True, Civ covers 1000s of years, but different mods are useful if one wants to model a smaller time period more specifically. This is why people make WW2 mods, strictly Medieval Europe mods, etc...


Thanks for the name help to all. Some are of course duplicates (different names for same place), but as neither my Quenya or Sindarin are all that strong, I don't yet feel comfortable simply making up new ones. I just don't want to see the Numenoreans with Andunie 7 on the map.

 

[s3d]

Originally posted by Beowulf
I'm going to start a scenario based on the LotR setting. Did anyone made some units i could possibly use. You will offcourse be mentioned in the readme file once the scenario is complete.

Feel free to use any of my units. For now it's only assasin in completed modpacks forum. I may export some units from AoK soon.

 

[golddigger]

Originally posted by JarHead

"::: Off Tolkien,
Maugan mentions "Orcs with guns" This brings up a good MOD based on "Grunts" by Mary Gentle. (I'm currently creating; is anyone else? If you haven't read the book, think Orcs with 1970's tech fighting magic wielding elves, with a Monty Python sense of humor.

Back to Tolkien,
I've started a map (only, no rules) based on my copy of "Atlas of Middle-Earth". :::"
================
I spent many a' hour ingrosed in the Tolkien books while "WORKING" lol: ) on the 'TAPS' (Trans-Ak. Pipe Line); at over $20/hr.; 18+ hr/day; "the GOOD Old Days ". Well; my first thought is that, with sush as Tolkien; nothing is as good as the indiviual's imagination. The animated movies didn't do it; the new movie won't do it; BUT!!!!; a Civ 'Special-senario' just might. I'm interested
+++++++++++++++++

"::: Two problems:
1) Maps always wrap around? Tolkien only alluded to the rest of the planet, I'd hate to do that much guess work. :::"
================
---KeyWords; "alluded to"--- In my oppion; Middle Earth sould NEVER be a 'wrap around' map. The non-Middle Earth world should never "Tough" Middle Earth. no one should be able to get to the East by going west or to the West by going east.

Well that's my 2@ worth; (I Middle Earth)

 

[God]

I recommend people who are making a LoTR scenario to look at Harlan Thompson's middle earth scenario for CIv2.
He changed some wonders and stuff.

 

[Ptolemy]

I have a suggestion for a resource: The athelas plant. All those who have read all three books will probably agree. I think it should have the same function as the "Wheat" on plains, but it should be found in forests instead of plains.

And I have a question about wonders.
Can you change the functions of the wonders??
I'd like to know because I think the wonders should be changed to some LOTR-WOnders, for instance Galadriels ring.


Someone posted this:
43] PPL Heard Boromir's horn in gondor , they did not show that.
I think they will show this in the next movie. The story has not yet come to Gondor and I think that is why they haven't shown it.

 

[Arrian]

Harlan's Civ II LOTR scenario rocked, definitely check that out, guys. Second, after taking a look at that, you will realize what is possible with a good editor, which Civ III presently lacks. You probably should wait for the editor to be beefed up prior to doing a Scenario of the Third Age (War of the Rings). The reason I say this that the LOTR plays out in a brief snippet of time, Civ-speaking Thus, no tech advances, and the goal is either to get the Ring to Mt. Doom or to capture the Ring (depending on who you're playing). Tons of "hero" units and all that.

HOWEVER, I could see a Second Age Mod that begins with the settlement of Numenor... The Map is basically Middle Earth, with Numenor (map in Forgotten Tales... it's pretty simple) out in the western sea. I played around with making a Civ II scenario for the 2nd Age (meant for play as the Numenoreans), and it was coming along - and then Civ III came out, heh. There is a lot of cool stuff there. I had a special unit called Celembrimbor (sp?) that, when killed by orcs, gave "Elvish Forging" to The Enemy, allowing them to research "Dark Forging," which in turned allowed Nazgul production... but anyway.

My basic point is that LOTR is a scenario, but the Second Age could be more of a mod, and the current editor might be enough. You could set up the beginning of the Second Age and let it go from there.

Just a thought.

-Arrian

 

[WhittyMike]

Originally posted by Arrian
...You probably should wait for the editor to be beefed up prior to doing a Scenario of the Third Age (War of the Rings)....

HOWEVER, I could see a Second Age Mod that begins with the settlement of Numenor... The Map is basically Middle Earth, with Numenor (map in Forgotten Tales... it's pretty simple) out in the western sea... You could set up the beginning of the Second Age and let it go from there.
-Arrian

Arrian -- we have been thinking along exactly the same lines.

Until there's a real scenario editor, WOTR just can't be done.

And a scenario that started with the beginning of the 3rd Age might not be developed enough by the WOTR era to remotely resemble those events.

But if the game begins at the start of the Second Age, it gets more interesting.

I've got Fonstad's "Atlas of Middle Earth" and if time permitted I would create a Second Age map, including Numenor.

I have the following ideas that allow creation of a mod NOW -- using the existing editor and the tool for setting starting positions -- without waiting for a better editor and without too much special modification.

GEOGRAPHY

The map would include the main continent of Middle Earth (roughly corresponding to Europe, Asia, and Africa) with Numenor in the Western Sea. I don't think I would add the other continents shown in Fonstad's atlas, because I want the focus on the part of Middle-Earth described in LOTR. Also, I'd like to do this on a standard or large size map, not a huge one. A double wall of mountains would prevent wrap-arounds (although there might be a passage to the East that the Numenorians could find...).

The Anduin should be navigable coastal tiles all the way up to Cair Andros, north of Minas Tirith. At least for playtesting, I would consider diagonal land connections across the river at Osgiliath and Pelargir. These diagonal land connections would stop shipping traffic unless and until someone built a city there; the Civs controlling those Vicksburg-like cities would control river shipping at those chokepoints.

Some of the main roads of the Middle Earth zone would be already placed on the starting map, and would be assumed to have survived from the First Age. This would have an interesting effect of channeling development in certain directions.

Mountain passes would be simulated by putting a road through a key point in a mountain range, but also putting a fortification in the middle of that road on a mountain tile. This would be simulate a shortcut through the mountains that could be easily defended.

Barbarians would be set to Raging, representing unaffiliated Orcs, Goblins, Wargs, and assorted other nasty types.

Resources would be rich in Eriador and Gondor and thinner everywhere else, although Mordor's allies would have luxuries with which to trade. Perhaps the resources for later techs would be spread with more balance, i.e. rubber down in Far Harad, aluminum in the Blue Mountains. An intriguing idea is for the sole source of uranium to be on Mount Doom....

TECHNOLOGY

I would want to lengthen the domination of pre-Gunpowder, pre-industrial tech. I would reduce the cost of all techs by 50%, add the sum total of those reductions, and allocate that total among the following techs:
25% to Gunpowder
12.5% each to Chemistry and Metallurgy
25% to Steam Power
12.5% each to Industrialization and Scientific Method
I might also take Musketmen and Musketeers completely out of the game, and make Saltpeter a prerequisite for Riflemen.

Privateers would have a transport capacity of 1 unit.

THE FREE PEOPLES

1. The Numenorians (Commercial, Scientific, color Light Blue) would begin the game with Mapmaking and could become merchants of tech, maps, communications, and of the luxuries they would discover by sailing around. I'd probably use the Americans as a starting point for Numenor's "look". UU is a Caravel (replacing Galley) that requires only Mapmaking, and doesn't get lost on oceans or seas.

The Numenorians could not rest on their laurels; they would need to get to sea, explore, and trade. I envision Numenor as having only enough iron for itself, a great deal of gold for trading power, but no other resources. Numenor would have lots of fish and food bonuses so that it could support a large population relative to its land area (6 cities, one in the center of the starfish-shaped minicontinent and 5 on peninsulas).

With the current game, we can't make Numenor or Atlantis sink below the waves. That would be a neat feature for a future scenario editor.

2. and 3. Gondor and Arnor (Commercial, Expansionist, colors Dark Blue and Medium Blue) would be beginning Civs rather than surviving colonies of Numenor. They would be part of Numenor's "faction", however. I'd probably use the Roman and Greek civs as starting points. UU for Gondor is a Pikeman, at its medieval cost but requiring only Iron Working and Warrior Code, to replace Spearman and Pikeman. Arnor might have the same UU, or perhaps Arnor would have *both* Hoplites and Legions. I'd try to arrange it so that Dale was an outpost of Arnor, so the Men of Dale are in the game but not a separate Civ, but that would be hard to do with only one starting point, .

4 and 5. Elves (Scientific, Religious, colors Light Green and Dark Green) would use France and/or England for their "look" (Joan as Galadriel?). UU is Elvish Archer, replacing Archer and Longbowmen, strength of Longbow *plus* a bombard attack at zero range (i.e. a free first shot against an attacker). Might create both Eastern (Rhovanion/Lorien) and Western (Lindor) divisions.

6 and 7. Dwarves (Industrious, Scientific, colors Yellow and Orange) would use Germany as a starting point. UU would be Axemen, replacing both Swordsman and Pikemen, strength of Pikemen. Might create both Eastern (Iron Hills/Erebor) and Western (Blue Mountains) divisions. Dwarven areas would be loaded with gems, gold, iron, and other metals. (If they could just trade for food, they'd never leave the mountains!)

8. Hobbits (Industrious, Commercial, color Pink) would resemble -- ?. Not sure if they should be a separate Civ or part of Arnor. UU could be a defensive unit like the Hoplite. The Shire would have many food bonuses, as well as spices to represent longleaf.

9. Rohan (Religious, Expansionist, color Medium Green) would resemble --?-- (probably have to use China, even though Mao isn't what I have in mind for Theoden). UU would be Riders (like the Chinese Rider unit) in place of Horsemen and Knights, with the prerequisites of the former. Plenty of horses in Rohan, of course (as well as in the upper Vale of the Anduin, where the Rohirrim might begin).

MORDOR AND ITS ALLIES

10. Rhun/Easterlings (Expansionist, Religious, color Purple) resembling Iriquois; UU = Mounted Warrior (replacing Horseman).

11. Khand (Militaristic, Religious, color Light Grey) resembling Indians, with War Elephants. (Note that War Elephants would require Ivory, but the prerequisite would only be Monarchy rather than Chivalry.)

12. Near Harad (Militaristic, Expansionist, color Light Red), resembling Aztecs, UU=Jaguar Warriors

13. Far Harad (Militaristic, Religious, color Dark Red) resembling Zulus, with UU = Impis but *also* having War Elephants.

14. Umbar (Militaristic, Expansionist, color Medium Red), resembling Persians, would begin with Mapmaking but would have to use ordinary Galleys. UU = Immortals, in place of Swordsmen.

15. Dunlendings/Isengard (Militaristic, Religious, color Brown), resembling Babylonians, would be limited to Warriors only (no Spearmen, no Archers) until developing Iron Working, when their non-unique UU (the Immortals) would come into play (representing Isengard developing the Uruk-Hai). Dunlendings would have only Warriors, Immortals, Archers, and Catapaults as military units prior to Riflemen. They would not be able to build Galleys, either. (They're supposed to be a "loser" civ.)

16. Mordor (Militaristic, Scientific, color Dark Grey if Black isn't available) (which animation - Tokugawa or Ghandi? too bad we couldn't just have a large unblinking eye...). Mordor would begin in lousy terrain (Gorgoroth) :skull: and thus develop slowly (as Fëanor points out, the Nûrn region would be fertile). Mordor, however, would have a significant military advantage -- they would share the UU's of the non-free Peoples (consider this the hiring of mercenaries, or assimilation of slave peoples). Thus, they would have Jaguar Warriors in place of Warriors, Impis in place of Spearmen, Bowmen instead of Archers, Immortals instead of Swordsmen, Mounted Warriors instead of Horsemen, and War Elephants in place of Knights. But one more thing to handicap Mordor -- they'd start with a settler and three workers, but Mordor could not build additional workers, they could only capture and enslave those of other civs!

 

[Fëanor]

great ideas! only one thing:

Nurn , the great region in the south of mordor , it makes over 2/3 of Mordor and its fertile , especially around the Rivers and de Lake .

 

[Ptolemy]

I don't think that the Nùmenoreans should be scientific and comercial, I believe they should be scientific and militaristic. This will show the development of the Nùmenoreans from the noble and fine half-elvish people to the immortality wanting and militaristic people they became.

Rohan should not be religious. They should be industrious instead.

Another handicap for Mordor should be that they only could have Despotism as government. I believe we can agree that Sauron is an evil dictator!

I don't think there should be any form of gunpowder! It does not belong to Middle Earth!

Great ideas with the dwarfes and the Anduin!

I don not think that there should be any governments available except for monarchy and despotism, unless you can change some of the functions and the names for the governments. If u can do this you could get "Elfish Monarchy"! That would be cool. I don't know the limits of civ3 creating.

 

[Asuka]

Im currently designing a very ambitious Lord of the Rings mod for Civ 3. With current hacks, copy tools etc, this will not be possible. Therefore this mod will be worked on from the ground up, starting with mucking about with the .exe file.

Note that this will not be a single map, nor even a single scenario. What i intend to do (and i may have to adjust this when i find out exactly how feasible my ideas are) is to change even some of the most basic concepts of the game. This will take quite a long time, and probably quite a lot of help.

If it helps, think of it like this - the LOTR mod will be to Civ 3 what Counter Strike is to Half-Life.

A quick summary of things i plan to muck about with (to give you an idea of the scope):
Several maps (for instance, Middle-Earth, Middle-Earth with Beleriand still attached (1st and 2nd age), Valinor and Middle Earth, Númenor and Middle Earth, The Shire (small)...)
Several scenarios (war of the ring, last alliance, battle of the shire etc.)
New Splash Screen and menu background
New Music (as time and talent allows - possibly even tribe specific music)
New Resources (mythril, athelas etc)
New tribes (of course)
New terrain (possibly - im considering the value of 'wasteland', for Mordor and a couple of other places)
New Units (of course - also many tribes specific units)
New Races!
This is one of the most ambitious changes, and might require some explanation. Apart from each citizen having a nationality, the will also have a race. For instance, an orc will only need 1 food upkeep per turn, and can still work polluted land. This will need some testing to keep balanced, of course
New Technology (completely new tech tree divided into 3/4 ages)
New Wonders, improvements, etc
Special Units!
These units will be a bit like leaders, in that they will not be able to attack military targets. They can be captured by military units. They will be found in goody huts, or received as a special event. They can attack other special units. Different special units have different abilities (eg Frodo unit is unseen like a submarine). Units will be able to travel in fellowships, which will be like armies for special units, to give them some defence power. Speaking of which, armies, will need a special unit to lead them.
Boundaries will work differently.
New AI
Other new concepts:
- Paths and roads replace roads and railroads (paths movement 2, roads movement 4)
- Cities cannot be built in scenarios, nor can they be totally destroyed. Instead they are ruined, and can be resettled by their original builder with a settler, at size 1 (possibly even with improvements) or can be completely destroyed by a worker.


Hmmm, theres tons more but its all written out long hand, so suffice it to say that this is a mod which will be a LOT of work, but could be very good.

Any offers of help, or feedback, you can mail me at asuka@playerofgames.com

A

 

[WhittyMike]

Originally posted by Ptolemy
...I don't think there should be any form of gunpowder! It does not belong to Middle Earth!...(

Ptolemy --

I hear you. Perhaps the victory conditions would be modified to remove everything other than histogram or conquest victory. Then there's no reason why the tech tree couldn't be effectively shut down after non-gunpowder pre-industrial techs are discovered.

However, if I had the time to do this mod, I would leave the victory conditions alone, modify the tech tree as I've described to make gunpowder, steam power, etc. into massive tech bottlenecks, but then permit an Industrial and Modern age to occur very late in the game.

I suppose we could look at this as two separate development projects. First (easier to do as it would all be possible given the existing "scenario editor" and the Civ Starting Position hack tool) would be a "Middle Earth Mod" that is basically Civ3 with a flavor of Second and Third Ages of Middle Earth. Second (because it requires a real scenario editor to do it right) would be a "Middle Earth Scenario" that would be more a lot more involved, but also a lot closer to the LOTR. In the Scenario, the victory conditions could be modified, the tech tree could be greatly modified, and special fantasy units could be added. A great concept, but IMHO it needs to wait for a real scenario editor.

Whim

 

[joost1110]

I am gonna love this mod, really, very cool ideas all. I would even like to help (if possible) on making this mod. I would like to make the unit graphics (haven't done anything like that before, but I would like to try out if I can do it). I guess we can already make the things we can now, and finish the work once the necesarry patches or exp. packs arrive.

I agree too that there shouldn't be gunpowder in it, it isn't in the books so it shouldn't be in the mod. But I think there SHOULD be scenario(s) (once that is possible) and maps, because if you just change the looks and everything, but with no correct maps, it will still not look like LotR.

I have an idea on how to make 'super-units' just make a new resource that those units would need, and build one of them (in the scenario editor, once it's here) and don't put the resource in the map, like that you just have 1 of them. I would also make just 3 or 4 civ's, at least until you can with the editor make alliances and wars that can't be broken/stopped.

Let me know if you need my help!