Tone's first Deity milk run

Tone

Deity
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Feb 2, 2003
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It's been a couple of years since I managed to finish my Monarch Histo game. I've been saying for a while that I will make an effort to improve upon that score but I always manage to find a different game to play rather than do the one thing that will boost my QM score.

Actually my life seems to revolve around doing one thing in order to avoid doing another. I'm meant to be moving house in the next week or so, which means that in my eyes it's the ideal time to start a Deity milk attempt. After all, it will take my mind off the fact that I should be packing all I own into big boxes!

I should mention that I have chosen a Pangea map so it's never going to break any records, but hopefully it will help me learn a few lessons on how to milk at the higher levels. It should also be a bit quicker than a 'pelago map (none of that messing around with boats and airstrips) and so should be played out in a reasonable time. I chose the Iroquois and managed to roll a start with a domination limit of 3941, which is pretty good for a Pangea map. Agri plus MWs-love it!

My rivals? England, Ottomans, Aztecs, Byzantines, Mongols, Americans, Russians and Portugal. I've no idea what I was thinking when selecting some of those opponants. It was a while ago when I set mapfinder running but I'm sure that I had a good reason for choosing them at the time.

My eyes were growing pretty wide as a saw that I had a couple of luxes nearby to pair up with the beef.

3000BC.JPG


The plan was min research on Writing and then max out on CoL followed by Phil for the Rep slingshot. It worked just fine, but I realised later just why many players go for Monarchy when looking to carve out an empire at this level. :blush:

By the start of the ADs I had expanded about as much as I could and was considering who my first victim would be. Unfortunately the Byzantines were also thinking along these lines and one of their warriors, escorting a settler across my lands saw an opportunity to steal a city and so they declared war on me. You might be able to see him in the north west outside Kiehero just before he pounced on my undefended city.

30AD.JPG


The first war was quite painful. Those blasted dromons redlined any unit stupid enough to finish by the coast and war weariness quickly accelerated. I took a few cities but was forced to sue for peace due to mass unhappiness, despite me having four luxes.

A few hundred years later when the PT was up I renewed the conflict. WW kicked in again pretty quickly and I was stupid to think that I could convinnce the Byzantines population to side with me. I rolled their armies over pretty quickly but their population kept revolting and I had numerous flips to contend with. In the end I had taken all their cities but they had a settler somewhere in one of the 20+ dromons that were still sailing the seas. Fortunately I had left a drop off point for them and after about five turns the settler landed.

600AD-Byz_end.JPG


First victim dealt with! Now I could finally overcome the resistance in all those Byzantine cities and turn my attention to another neighbour.

Next up were the English. They had several sources of Dyes that they were supplying to a variety of my rivals and they also had a supply of wines that would take my lux supply to six. I had timed my trades with them badly though and had to wait five turns for the current deal to end if I was to keep my reputation intact.

When I finally declared war they had gained Nationalism and so losses were higher than they might otherwise had been, given that their only home strategic resource was a single supply of horses. Queue more WW!

I had decided to avoid the flipping problem by razing everything in sight. This was sure to make the world mad with me but I was strong enough to cope. However my supply of settlers was not flowing to the front as fast as it should have done (another lesson learnt!) and so I was playing a game of blocking rival settlers along with holding back attacks until I had my settlers in place to claim the soon to be vacated land.

750AD-lack_of_settlers.JPG


I left them with a few towns south of Mongolia (plus a few island towns) and traded for Nationalism as part of the peace deal. I'm not sure if razing Sistine was a good idea but no doubt I'll find out in a while.

I completed my research of Steam and then built a flimsy strategic rail network before taking on the Mongols. I finally declared on Mongolia in the late 800s but at least rails were helping me get my settlers to their destination pretty quickly.

900AD-mongol_war.JPG


They Mongols had an MPP with the backward Portuguese and my alliances with Russia and America helped kick off a mass conflict. As usual, the AI cannot fight against rifles and so I've been able to roll over the Mongol lands whilst they slug it out on the other side of the world with no real gains for either side.

I'm now at 960AD and I could take out all the last Mongols cities on the main landmass this turn, leaving them with an island city. I'm just about to claim my own source of silks, leaving just the Ottoman spices to claim for a full set.

960AD.JPG


So, where next?

The Aztecs are getting far too powerful ad these are the civ that I really want to take on. If they haven't got Rep Parts already they can't be far away and they've managed to keep out of the current conflicts so far so they haven't been weakened by war. Unfortunately they are also shielded by the Americans and the Russians and so getting to them would be too messy IMO.

(The Portuguese are too far away at the moment as well and they could make a good candidate for the final victim.)

If I'm not going to hit the Aztecs before they have infantry, then I could take a detour to the backward Ottomans and seize that final lux. However I have no navy to transport me over to their island and so this will take a while to organise. I also have a current lux deal with them so maybe they can wait a bit longer yet.

This leaves my two allies-the Russians and the Americans. I guess I'll wait and see who breaks the alliance with the Mongols first. The Russians would be my next target as they have built both the Pyramids and JSB but maybe a few turns to consolidate the newly gained lands wouldn't be too bad an idea. I could even do a bit of research again.

Current domination tiles: 2286 (38.3%). Score: 6478.
 
I'm now at 960AD and I could take out all the last Mongols cities on the main landmass this turn, leaving them with an island city.
You left the Mongols a city? You're fired.
 
You left the Mongols a city? You're fired.
Ah yes, well, ummm.... It's only a temporary situation. I'll deal with them a bit later but I was hoping for a decent deal when the alliances run out. Then again they are down to just one city and they'll only give me 600g for peace. I think they are going out of the game

Maybe phony war the Aztecs and bring in America and Russia against them to slow down the Aztecs?
In some ways I like the sound of that but there are a few problems.

1. I now know that they have infantry and the others don't.
2. They'd probably bring in the English and I couldn't take the additional WW that would kick in due to my previous war with them. I haven't got the resources to deal with those English islands yet so that would drag on too long. (How many times in this game am I regretting going with republic?)
3. Russia could hurt them a little bit but most of the fighting would end up with America trying to hit the chokepoint. I really don't fancy their chances much.
4. It might give the Aztecs a chance to get the American iron before I can. This would enable them to complete their rails and factories which would be bad news for me I feel.
5. The Aztecs would get a load of War Fever.

All in all I think that I have more to lose than they do from that situation. Now if they declare on me then that's a different matter. I might just get the Russians as allies and hope that the Americans are bribed to take the other side but I really think that the Aztecs will have to wait for now.

I still have 9 turns of the alliances vs the Mongols and I'm still not ready to lose my rep so I might need to rush some boats in the south. Then the Americans or Russians are fair game. Then again maybe stopping the Ottomans from giving their spices to the Aztecs should be a priority. Boats in the south again...

In the meantime I've decided to start research again as I feel that I've fallen too far behind. I'm going for Electricity which I can then hopefully use for trading with the English and Americans as long as I get there before them. The English are almost crippled now and the Americans are hopefully going for Communism so I think that I stand a reasonable chance. Maybe I can even beat the Aztecs to tanks.

970AD.JPG
 
Ok, another update. Only 6 more turns done but a bit of a change in the situation.

The research plan worked OK. I picked up Industrialisation, Medicine, Sanitation and The Corporation in trades with England and America but, as you can see below, I'm still a fair way behind some civs. However the Aztecs have only just got steel as they didn't have it in the interturn so I think that that's the full picture. Please don't let them have oil. Please.

tech_1030AD.JPG


The Aztecs have just declared on America so that's good to a certain degree. I'll let them carry on slugging it out. Meanwhile I'll look to steal the spices from the Ottomans soon which should hit the Aztecs indirectly. I've not renewed my trade with the Russians either so they can be next if I choose. They have Rep Parts but I don't see any infantry so maybe they're without rubber. That would also cut another source of luxes from the Aztecs.

I still have three turns of that pesky alliance to run and as they are linked to resources I'm just having to sit there and wait for the turns to pass. However the Mongols have signed an MPP with England so I can make good of this. The plan is to buy as much from the English using gpt and then land on the Mongolian island. This should get the English to declare on me and thus cancel the gpt deal. I'll then sue for peace with Mongolia and then buy techs from them for gpt again. This will be swiftly followed by an attack on the English and force the Mongols to declare on me again. I'll then wipe the Mongols out and I should be near to tech parity. (I might also be reinstated as a HOF Staff member if 'slug looks kindly upon this treachery. :D )

In the meantime I've started research on Scientific Method and a prebuild should ensure that I get ToE first. It's been a while since I've looked to get Hoover as a priority in any civ game. Maybe I've been playing too many easy games lately.
 
Why so many library builds? Capture ToA early for the next attempt, especially on pangea.
 
Why so many library builds?
I wanted some useful culture builds. The ones in the immediate core are OK (IMO) but the others were a really stupid idea. I was getting used to the level of corruption in this type of game.

Capture ToA early for the next attempt, especially on pangea.
I did want to but the Portuguese built it and they're not particularly close. The Russians nabbed the Pyramids and America got the GLib, so the three wonders that I was most keen on getting were built far, far away.

I also built SoZ which really wasn't worth the effort.
 
Yay! A game that ACTUALLY has pictures instead of endless words. ;)

Looks like a good game so far, Tone, but what do I know? I don't even know how to milk.
 
...but what do I know? I don't even know how to milk.
I'm not too sure that I do either. At the moment I'm just going for domination pretty quickly whilst trying to keep a reasonably happy population. I might attach a stapler to the enter button when I get to the milk phase-we'll see.

I feel a twinge of responsibility for this - maybe I'm just making it up in my head?
If you're referring to your inspiring threads, then you're right!



Anyway. another mini-update. I've been thinking about this stage for a while and I'm still not too sure on how to play it but here's what's happened and what I'm thinking.

Firstly I think that I should have listened to you guys and started a phony war with the Aztecs earlier. They are starting to become a real threat and I keep saying 'what if they get infantry/tanks/bombers/mech infantry/modern armour.' The time to act is now, if not actually ten turns ago!

The stuff with the English and Mongols worked out just fine. The English gave me Espionage and then the Mongols gave me Refining in the gpt deals before they redeclared on me although I wasn't able to get Rep Parts as well which is a bit of a problem. I've been hoping that America gets Rep Parts but no such luck so far.

Anyway, just for the boss here's a screenie of the final blow:

Mongols_KO_d.JPG


I will be attacking the Ottomans in two turns time. I want the world's supply of spices in my hands and also the northern part of their island is quite nice and green with a fair bit of sea tiles too boot.

I might then use my small group of boats to launch an attack on those last English islands. I'm not sure about this though and if I can get them to the table for a PT, I'll do so as quickly as possible. I have a little bit of WW carried over from the last conflict would you believe, although it's not as bad as the Mongol situation? (Pauses to reconsider the stupidity of choosing Republic...)

The Russians have beaten me to Sci Method but I'll have it next turn. I've investigated their ToE city and my prebuild will easily beat them. I am currently at 180 shields with 60spt whereas they appear to have a bit of a happiness problem. :D

Russian_ToE_build.JPG


The current tech and resource situation is as follows:

1080TechResource.JPG


What I can't determine is whether the Russians are importing their rubber or whether they have their own source, but I think that I need the Russians to help me slow the Aztecs down either way.

My plan as it stands is as follows:

When I get Sci Method I'll trade with the Aztecs for Combustion. It may well cost a fair bit of gpt plus some luxes but I should then be able to trade with the Russians for Rep Parts. Before this though I am hoping that I can get them to declare on me. They have a couple of cavs in my territory and I think that I have a leave or declare option available to me. They are furious with me and have a stronger military so I really think that they will declare on me. I can then rope the Russians in as part of the Rep Parts deal.

The major downside is what to do next if they don't declare on me, particularly if I end up using luxes to fund the deal. I don't want to wreck my rep but I don't want to help them research even more.

I'm still mulling this idea over but it's the best I have come up with so far. I might play some more tonight but only if I can decide on a plan of action. I don't seems to have made much progress recently so I need to be a bit more careful about what I do in future.
 
I wanted some useful culture builds. The ones in the immediate core are OK (IMO) but the others were a really stupid idea. I was getting used to the level of corruption in this type of game.

I did want to but the Portuguese built it and they're not particularly close. The Russians nabbed the Pyramids and America got the GLib, so the three wonders that I was most keen on getting were built far, far away.

I also built SoZ which really wasn't worth the effort.
It looks like a good game so far for sure, I just wanted to point out ToA is huge, and upgrading directly MWs to Cavs to get to domination very early would be huge for score. You could probably get 70K doing that on pangea and getting to domination around 750 AD.
 
I just wanted to point out ToA is huge, and upgrading directly MWs to Cavs to get to domination very early would be huge for score.
No, you were quite right in all your observations. With that wonder I wouldn't have the massive problems with poor culture and the content faces wouldn't hurt at all. I also had my cavs sitting around waiting for deals to run out-a really poor situation to be in.

In some ways I feel that I've made a number of key decisions incorrectly and thus I'm not going to take this save to anywhere near its full potential. However I'm (hopefully) learning lots and having a great time doing so.

For about a year I've been thinking that I need a better histo game and this attempt was meant to lay that to rest. My aim was to get within 10K of your score but the more I play this I find myself thinking/saying 'next time I do this I'll...' and so this is starting to feel more like a warm up for The Real Thing! I'll still finish this though as I might feel differently once I've got to the domination limit but if I do try again, creating this thread will have helped as I'll have it written down rather than having to rely on my failing memory. :D

I moving home next week though so some momentum is bound to be lost then...
 
artillery, artillery, artillery. it's boring, but if you have enough arty, you can redline most anything....

another question... does your rep still worry you? this isnt' a diplo game and you have artillery.

I'm not saying you should break deals, cause I'm not sure about your overall place in the world, but maybe you are strong enough not to care anymore.
 
Tone - I noticed your core. Why is Niagara Falls CxxxxC from Salamanca?

Is that usual Milking game practice or was it just to get the cow in the 21 tiles?
 
artillery, artillery, artillery. it's boring, but if you have enough arty, you can redline most anything....
I've got a fair amount cannons for defensive duties (dealing with invaders, remnants that are in the lands that I've just cleared, that sort of thing) but it never seems to fit in with offensive moves. Most of the towns that I'm attacking have a cultural border of four tiles so even with using settlers to cut into their lands the pace is just too slow, unless I'm missing something.

My problem with progress is more down to poor choices of alliances. For example I spent 11 turns or so waiting for the alliances I had signed against the Mongols to run out. I couldn't wipe them out because I had tied in resources to the deals and my next two 'victims' were my current allies. On reflection I really didn't need the alliances so all in all a couple of really poor choices.

Tone - I noticed your core. Why is Niagara Falls CxxxxC from Salamanca?

Is that usual Milking game practice or was it just to get the cow in the 21 tiles?
I really don't know what usual milking game practice is! I did one Monarch game a couple of years ago that started off as a trial and I never got around to doing the real one. With this I tried a number of starts up to around 1500BC or so but the surrounding lands were pretty poor. This one has been pretty good though so I ran with it but I've not got much experience to rely on.

Back to your question, I was not so worried about leaving some space as the long term plan is to flood all the lands once I wipe out my rivals and build hospitals and so the less towns I build on grasslands the better. The current set up is pretty good for when I get them set up as metros.

Medium term I was going to fit in some temporary towns to get those tiles used but I never seem to have enough settlers. Why couldn't one of my neighbours have built the Pyramids? :sad:

Short term though, NF was my second settler pump in the early game and so yes, I wanted that cow in my first ring. There are a few bgs in there as well so it could do a good job. The other cow town was not coping as a settler factory until I got all the luxes connected but it made a good worker pump.
 
yeah - perfect spacing in the core is not that important - what's important is to get productive cities up and producing settlers and workers ASAP.

CxxxxC isnt' unreasonable if it gets you a couple of settler factories. Neither is CxCxC - in fact, in my warlord milkrun, I had 3 cows right next to each other and so my first 3 cities were CxCxC for the entire game!!
 
The "ideal" city placement in a milking game is dense at the start and loose at the end. If you have a few CxCxC settler factories, you can abandon the middle one later on for an extra happy citizen. Also, CxCxC specialist farms can be thinned out. Another thing with dense building is you might reach 512 cities; this stops the AI from founding any more.

Tone, I agree with AT that the solution is big stacks of Arillery, coupled with settler creep for speed.
 
I moving home next week though so some momentum is bound to be lost then...
How true this was. Over four months later though, I think that I've settled in the new flat well enough to try and pick this up. I'm really glad that I set this thread up as it's helped me remember some of what I've been doing. And yes, arty does seem to be the best thing to do. I'll just have to be prepared to sacrifice some speed.

I was a bit worried about starting again after all this time as I had probably forgotten so much of what I wanted to do. However in the end I just had a quick look around and then pressed enter. Good news hit me straight away:

1080alliance.JPG


I got Sci Method and traded with the Aztecs for Combustion. It cost me iron plus 460gpt as well as my new tech but I was not planning on letting the deal last.

I traded with the Russians and the Americans for Rep Parts, Democracy, Fascism as well as getting a bit of cash from them. I then went back to the Aztecs, wound them up a little, as the trade deal and taken them off furious, and then told them to leave or declare. The result was in little doubt...

1080aztecsdec.JPG


So now the war fever has created WLTKDs all over the empire and apart from a couple of optionals (Free Artistry and Communism) I have tech parity and TOE is due in six. I have set reserach for Mass Prod set for 6 turns also and so then I'll have a clear tech lead. I think that I'll take Mot Trans with Atomic Theory so as to get some tanks before the rest of the world but I'm still thinking about this.

I'm about to attack the backward Ottomans next turn and secure their luxes. I just hope that the Aztecs concentrate more on the Americans and the Russians and don't have a massive bomber fleet heading my way. I'll take out their rogue town on my borders and then probably take peace asap. The Russians have the Pyramids but no rubber so I think that they'll be next.
 
Time for an update.

First things first, I got ToE and chose AT and Motorised Transport. The thinking was that tanks might help me deal with the Aztec infantry in the near future.

Anyway, before that I was just about to attack the Ottomans. Easy prey, so I thought. They were backwards and without resources, apart from some recent trades giving them iron and horses. How would archers spears plus the odd horse or sword face the might of a (small) force of rifles and cavs? BIG MISTAKE!

I landed my troops with a pair of settlers on a hill hoping to make a move for the desired eighth lux with the next wave of troops. They just moved around me but didn't attack. Then I settled a town on that hill and they swarmed in from the four corners of their tiny island. I soon learnt what Stalin meant when he said that quantity has a quality of its own.

My heroic troops fought them off as best as they could. An elite cav spawned a great leader and I built a cav army. A defending rifle then got promoted and spawned another great leader. I knew that I was in trouble by this stage though and so my rifles formed a second army. However a backward Deity AI can build stacks and stack of troops and if they never go to war they will only lose one per turn if they need to disband. Thats a lot of troops by 1100AD. From subsequent battles I estimate that this tiny nation had about 400-500 units. The conflict was shades of Rourkes Drift but with a different outcome. :(
Spoiler doomed town :
Doomed_city.jpg

The final stand spawned a third MGL but despite the promise of reinforcements due to arrive next turn my beachhead fell. The war fever that I was celebrating just a few turns earlier turned into massive WW.

A change of tactics was required so I decide on taking over the nearest Ottoman city to my shores and then using my armies to shepherd the Ottoman masses away from my cities whilst razing theirs. It took time and stopped me from fighting on the mainland. In the end though I took the Aztec lux and all the grassland that I wanted from them. They also have a nice prison built in the tundra (Konya) which could be useful later on. ;)
Spoiler Ottomans reduced empire :
Ottomans_curbed.jpg

I then turned my attention to the Aztecs but again took too long in building up forces. I had no navy in the area and certainly nothing to cope with teh destoyers and cruisers that were swarming in the seas between us. However they had built a town which was six squares from my continent. Just close enough to shuttle transports without leaving them in open water.

I landed and took the town and then started to shuttle troops across. Once I had created a bit of space I built an airfield to increase the rate of troop transfer. I can't remember doing this in a game before. This modern warfare is something that I don't get a lot of practice with.
Spoiler Aztec invasion underway :

Aztec_invasion.jpg

They were still a tough nut to crack; especially as their neighbours the Americans took a PT really quickly. In the end I kicked them off the continent and took peace.

This opened up the heart of Portugal. We had been at war for centuries and they no longer gave my people war fever so they had outlasted their usefulness. They had rifles and longbows and they had been in plenty of wars so they were going to cause no problems. Their culture was low and they were not going to last long so I decided to keep some of their towns.
Spoiler Portugal's last moments as a mildly significant power :
Portugal_doomed.jpg

Their core fell in just one turn, leaving them with just a couple of coastal tundra towns south of America, but what should I do now? Only America and Russia were left as rivals, and America barred the path to the Russian Pyramids. I didn't fancy another coastal invasion in going for Russia directly so pressed the space bar to let my armies heal whilst thinking of whether to attack America or see if there was a way of getting them to attack me when the AI showed me the way forward.

Firstly the pair of them signed an MPP and then a few Russian troops entered my borders. I told the Russians to leave or declare and they declared on me. I then attacked a lone Russian outpost and thus got America to declare on me as well. Lux slider was immediately reduced and then i got down to the business of smashing the Americans and Russians together. Nice one. Gotta just love MPPs!

The Russians had one source of oil but no rubber or horses. The Americans had a source of rubber but no oil. I had just got computers and so my armies and Mech Infantry sheilded them from most of my cities whilst my artillery set up easy kills for the tanks. My armies were all in the old Aztec empire so they blazed a trail Eastwards to link up the two empires without the need for air or sea transport.
Spoiler east meets west :

EastMeetsWest.jpg

Once this was done, the southern American lands were easy meat and Portugal bit the dust once their American protective cushion was removed.
Spoiler South America :

S_America_decimated.jpg

America will fall very soon now and I'm now in a position to attack the Russian heartland so the game is well and truly won. The only thing that will slow the demise of Russia is if they I'm just disappointed that it's taken me so long to get close to the domination limit.

Once I have cleared the mainland I'll then have to decide what to do with my rivals. I'm close to getting Fission (prebuild for UN will ensure that I don't lose a Diplo game) and knowledge of where the uranium sources are situated will be a factor. The Americans have no offshore holdings so this will leave the Russians, Aztecs, English and Ottomans still in the game. Still, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
 
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