Total frustration for a newbie

[vmxa]

Well for say 80 turns you lost 160 gold or 180 beakers for just one specialist. Now that settler you want at that point could have been bought for less. Just one turn for making 1 shield and then rush the settler. I think you come out ahead that way.

OTOH I have no problem with doing something like that in a place or three, but that is enough. Often players at these levels will be capturing large cities and be able to pop out settlers from them and have little need of making them on their towns.

 

[gmaharriet]

Well for say 80 turns you lost 160 gold or 180 beakers for just one specialist. Now that settler you want at that point could have been bought for less. Just one turn for making 1 shield and then rush the settler. I think you come out ahead that way.

I guess I wasn't clear on my explanation. The corrupt towns I do this in accumulate ONLY the 1 shield from the town center...after 30 turns you have enough shields for your settler. The citizens are handled normally with just enough of them working irrigated grass to support the maximum possible specialists.

I certainly don't do this in even a minimally productive town. Most often it's in towns I've already conquered from another civ on my continent...too corrupt to produce more than 1 gold and 1 shield and usually filled in at CxC (ICS-style).

This may be due to a difference in playing style. I'm more likely to go for an SS win, and my conquered lands are to ensure having all the needed resources, luxes and increased research speed to build an SS, as well as to prevent another AI from winning by culture or diplo or even beating me to the SS. It may also work better for me at my current Emperor level than at the Deity level you play.

 

[Brain]

Alright, I just tuned into this discussion but I'll try to help anyway.

First of all your initial posts seemed to be a bit hysterical so I just have one thing to say...

Don't Panic!

Okay...take a big deep breath and read on.

1) Corruption/waste is WAY too high. It renders some cities useless regardless of what measures I take.

Yeah, for the most part you'll just have to live with it. There are ways to reduce corruption, but there will always be some. I know it sucks but it's not as bad as it seems. In fact, your first five cities will do most of the work throughout the entire game.

2) spies are virtually useless. Too expensive for little gain. Can't steal technology, etc., like the previous games (Civ II, SMAC).

I have to agree there. I've played up to the highest levels and never really needed spies.

3) you can't speed up wonders and you never know how close to completion your rivals are. I've wasted many shields just to find out that it was built while I'm still one or two turns away.

You can use a what is known as a "pre-build" to start building the wonder before you have the required technology. But at your level you should mostly just ignore wonders and learn to play without them. Wonders are just crutches that encourage you to learn bad habits.

4) combat is still too difficult against the AI IMO.

Don't get into fights until you are sure you're going to win. Don't take 3-4 units with you to combat. Wait until you have a stack of 20. Even obsolete units are going to kick ass against more modern units if you've got an overwhelming number of them.

5) AI rivals build and settle cities unbelievably fast.

I'll discuss this later. See below.

6) catapults/cannons virtually useless. Only artillery and bombers are effective at bombardment.

Yeah, if you use 1 or 2. Make a stack of 10 and you'll see how powerful they are.

7) explorers are useless- you get them after most of the map is explored.

Agree partly. They make for good scouts to look ahead before moving your main force, but otherwise they aren't useful for "exploring".

Now all these things are details. In my humble opinion, your most important problem is the opening. The first 50 moves are crucial in Civ. So much that some players just quit if they're not in a good position after the first 50 moves.

Try the following.

Step 0: Give yourself a break.
When you start a random map don't just jump right in. Look at your start position and decide if it's good, and if it's not just start a new game. Do this a couple of times until you have a river and a cow or wheat next to your settler. It'll make things much easier for the opening.

Step 1: The land grab.
Everything in the opening is about grabing the most land as fast as possible. The AI knows that and will do everything to take the land away before you do.
- Have one city that produces only settlers. This is usually your capital. Start the game by building 3-4 warriors, a grannary, a worker and after that nothing but settlers until there is no more land to grab. The other cities (that you build with the settlers) will take care of the other stuff.
- In your second city build a barracks and then nothing but millitary units.
- In your third city build a grannary and start producing workers.
I omitted some details of course, but since you're only playing at Warlord this plan should be fine for a good start.

Step 2: It's the economy stupid!
The next most important thing is to develop your economy. You have to do this while you're still grabing land. By "economy" I mean many things.
- You'll need lots of workers to improve the land. Have one city produce workers so that you can have more or less 2 workers for each city. Since you're pumping out settlers continuously, you should also be pumping out workers continuously.
- Use your workers to connect all your cities and improve the land. The rules for what tiles to improve are a bit complicated. For now just try to balance out improving tiles around your cities and building roads to connect them.
- Build roads everywhere even if they are redundant. Roads give you a commerce bonus so the more you have the more gold you'll make.
- Put the science slider at 100% and use the luxury slider to control unhappy citizens.
- Switch to Republic as soon as possible. Forget any other government. The Republic will earn you the most cash and give you the best overall benefits.
- Don't build useless improvements in the early game. If you don't know what to build pick one of: grannary, harbor, library, courthouse, or marketplace. When you're done with all of these build a barracks and start producing millitary units. They'll surely come in handy later.
- Remember to build the Forbidden Palace whenever you can. It reduces corruption a lot.
- Cities on the coast can generate lots of cash.

Step 3: Go kick some butt!
I can sense a lot of frustration in your post due to long builder-type games that end in a loss because you did something wrong in the last few turns. Give yourself a break and have some fun conquering your enemies. It's really not that hard.
- Build large stacks of units, like 20 or something, and attack all at once.
- Build a large stack of catapults/trebuchets/whatever and move them with your attack force. Bombard cities until exhaustion before moving in with your troops. Catapults can be very powerful when used correctly.
- Once you've taken a few cities from an opponent they'll be so weak they won't be able to threaten you anymore. Just finish them off or keep them as a puppet state.

Most importantly: take it slow! Don't rush in the opening. Take your time to think things through until about 1500 BC.

Have fun!

 

[joe6778]

Thanks. I've come a long way in Civ III after reading the forums and other info, and I'm devoting a lot of time to improving my game. I don't see how I can play at any higher difficulty level than Warlord, however, since I'm still having some problems against the AI.

I guess some things aren't sinking in yet because I can't see how others are having such an easy time against the AI on the harder levels.

One problem I have is that in the early game I can't build enough settlers because each one takes away two citizens from my town. I also need to watch for barbarians and rival civs getting aggressive when I'm not prepared. So by the time I'm able to generate settlers and workers, my rivals are already way ahead of me.

I'm always slightly behind in building the United Nations, and I lost my second game by losing the vote for Secretary General even though I was winning on points. How do I get rivals to vote for me?

In the latest game I'm playing, most of my rivals were way ahead of me technically and had a lot more modern units than I did. If they chose to get aggressive, I would have been in real trouble.

I'm still pressing on.

 

[vorlon_mi]

.

I'm always slightly behind in building the United Nations, and I lost my second game by losing the vote for Secretary General even though I was winning on points. How do I get rivals to vote for me?

I'm still pressing on.

Bribery. Assume for a moment that you are successful in building the UN.
Don't hold the vote on the first turn. Make sure you are at peace with
the other small civs, and then each turn give them gifts -- 10 gold,
an extra luxury. Their attitude needs to be polite or gracious, and they
should vote for you.

Another tactic is to declare war on the #2 civ, and then pay off the others
to join in a military alliance with you, against that civ. Turn your science
all the way down, since you're done researching...use the extra gold for
bribes.

As you're getting close to discovering the tech that enables the UN,
say, 4 or 6 turns away, change one of your high-shield cities to building
the palace. Then, once you've discovered the tech, switch that city
to the UN, and you'll keep all the shields "in the bank."

 

[AutomatedTeller]

It's good, joe, to keep going.

One thing to realize is that I often go pretty much straight into a farmer's gambit early - build mainly settlers and workers, and only enough warriors to act as MP and explorers. Sometimes, that means that on turn 25 or 30, I get declared and lose the game spectacularly on the higher levels, but it's only 25 turns in, so no big deal.

Even on deity, you can often expand pretty safely without much of a military, as long as you never demand that the AI leaves your territory and you give in to all demands for cash.

To a degree - if you are blocking their expansion path, they will attack, of course. And if you stay weak too long, they will attack at some point, if just for your luxuries.

 

[sanabas]

Bribery. Assume for a moment that you are successful in building the UN.
Don't hold the vote on the first turn. Make sure you are at peace with
the other small civs, and then each turn give them gifts -- 10 gold,
an extra luxury. Their attitude needs to be polite or gracious, and they
should vote for you.

Another tactic is to declare war on the #2 civ, and then pay off the others
to join in a military alliance with you, against that civ. Turn your science
all the way down, since you're done researching...use the extra gold for
bribes.

Don't vote on the first turn?? Absolutely wrong. Gifts, and declaring on your opponent for the vote and allying everyone else in are both good things to do, but they can be done just before you complete the UN, so you can still hold the vote as soon as it is built.

As you're getting close to discovering the tech that enables the UN,
say, 4 or 6 turns away, change one of your high-shield cities to building
the palace. Then, once you've discovered the tech, switch that city
to the UN, and you'll keep all the shields "in the bank."

Again, why wait until you're only 4-6 turns from Fission to start a prebuild? Ideally, your prebuild should be hitting 1000 shields the same turn you research fission. Switch your city to the UN, immediately complete it, and enjoy your win.

@Joe: Again, your improvement is good, but the few problems you still have trace back to the early game. Having rivals for building the UN means your research is too slow, probably due to slow expansion resulting in a small core of cities doing the research.

The next new game you start, take the time to post the original save, take the time to make a detailed log of what you do and why for the first ~50 turns, and post the log and the 50 turn save. It will make a huge difference to your play.

 

[gmaharriet]

The next new game you start, take the time to post the original save, take the time to make a detailed log of what you do and why for the first ~50 turns, and post the log and the 50 turn save. It will make a huge difference to your play.

Great idea, sanabas!!! That would be a great way to learn.

Here's another thought....

In the Succession Game forum there's noobie level game starting with an experienced player as a trainer. It will probably be at either Chieftain or Warlord level. You could either join the game as a trainee or at least lurk on the thread and learn from the others. There weren't any games at that level when I started, but I learned soooo much from reading other people's games. Here's a link to the one just getting started. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168455

 

[Brain]

One problem I have is that in the early game I can't build enough settlers because each one takes away two citizens from my town.

You need food bonuses for a settler factory to work. I'll try to simplify.

Do this:

- Restart until you have a cow and a river next to you.
- Use your worker to irrigate the cow.
- Build a grannary.
- Build other stuff until you reach a population of 5. <-- VERY IMPORTANT!
- Now build only settlers.

It may seem like magic but you'll be able to produce settlers very quickly this way. Also read this

I also need to watch for barbarians and rival civs getting aggressive when I'm not prepared. So by the time I'm able to generate settlers and workers, my rivals are already way ahead of me.

Play with no barbarians and don't worry about the AI civs.

I'm always slightly behind in building the United Nations, and I lost my second game by losing the vote for Secretary General even though I was winning on points. How do I get rivals to vote for me?

Forget diplomacy. For beginners conquest victory is the simplest and cleanest way to win. Really.

Follow the steps above and you'll see a big difference in your game.

 

[Alex Johnson]

In the Succession Game forum there's noobie level game starting with an experienced player as a trainer. It will probably be at either Chieftain or Warlord level. You could either join the game as a trainee or at least lurk on the thread and learn from the others. There weren't any games at that level when I started, but I learned soooo much from reading other people's games. Here's a link to the one just getting started. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168455

Joe, I know you've been improving and finally accepting advice here and slowing down, but if you really want good, pertinent advice this is the place to go. Join a training game like this one. I don't know the guy hosting it, but I think his intentions are good and the whole point of learning hands-on from a game he's playing too is that his advice won't be as generic as if you start a thread like this one and say "why is it so hard". Having generic advice is good, but having specific advice is better. Go join the game. You obviously have no trouble finishing 20 turns and posting again in 0 time, and you obviously want to stick with it and improve and learn, so it sounds like you are the perfect candidate to join (those two are the biggest gripes I had about the SG I tried to join...)

 

[vorlon_mi]

@sanabas: Point taken about holding the vote as soon as the UN is built.
Also, about starting your prebuild early.

I get the sense that Joe is still working on planning ahead, and is a bit more
reactive. My suggestion of delaying the UN vote was intended to give him
a chance to stop, catch a breath, and start some serious sucking up to the
other AIs. It can be frustrating if you've been concentrating on winding down
a war or some other project, and find yourself 3 turns from finishing the UN
and you haven't yet spread the wealth around.
The AI doesn't do prebuilds very well (at all?), so even a 6 turn prebuild
in a city with a factory should give you a good head start. I don't think
that a wonder cascade is likely in early Modern Times.

A prebuild reaching 1000 shields as one researches Fission...hmmm.
If one assumes a city producing around 30 spt, that would mean starting
the prebuild roughly 30-33 turns before completing Fission. With the
research costs of late Industrial/early Modern techs, one is probably
going to be getting techs every 5-6 turns. That means starting your
prebuild for the UN while still in the Industrial age, perhaps 3-5 techs
before you can get Fission. That's planning ahead!

Now, the math works out much better if you can get a city that
is not your capital (perhaps the one with the FP?) that can produce
40 or 50 spt. That allows one to start the palace prebuild only 20 turns
ahead, and only 2 or 3 techs ahead of Fission.

I totally agree with planning ahead; I just wanted to suggest some
easy-to-follow steps that would improve his chances, once the
UN is built.

vorlon_mi

 

[vmxa]

I would think you cpuld find a city doing mor ethan 33 shields by that point in the game. Rails, factory, plant, maybe even a metro.

 

[sanabas]

I get the sense that Joe is still working on planning ahead, and is a bit more
reactive. My suggestion of delaying the UN vote was intended to give him
a chance to stop, catch a breath, and start some serious sucking up to the
other AIs. It can be frustrating if you've been concentrating on winding down
a war or some other project, and find yourself 3 turns from finishing the UN
and you haven't yet spread the wealth around.

Fair enough. It usually takes me a total of 1 turn to spread the wealth though. Assuming you haven't trashed your rep yet, it's simply a case of declaring on the biggest rival the turn before UN finishes, and allying everyone else in. Almost all your allies will vote for you, none will vote for a civ they're at war with, automatic win of the vote.

The AI doesn't do prebuilds very well (at all?), so even a 6 turn prebuild
in a city with a factory should give you a good head start. I don't think
that a wonder cascade is likely in early Modern Times.

True. But at 30spt, that's still 25+ turns to wait.

A prebuild reaching 1000 shields as one researches Fission...hmmm.
If one assumes a city producing around 30 spt, that would mean starting
the prebuild roughly 30-33 turns before completing Fission. With the
research costs of late Industrial/early Modern techs, one is probably
going to be getting techs every 5-6 turns. That means starting your
prebuild for the UN while still in the Industrial age, perhaps 3-5 techs
before you can get Fission. That's planning ahead!

At that point of the game, your prebuild city should be inland, fully improved & RRed, with a hospital, factory & coal/hydro plant. That's 20 tiles to work, all with an absolute minimum of 2 shields each, 1 for mining, 1 for RRing. That's a minimum of 41 base shields, 82 spt with the factory. More likely you'll be at or over 100spt. Starting a prebuild 10-12 turns in advance is not too tough.

 

[Sashie VII]

Fair enough. It usually takes me a total of 1 turn to spread the wealth though. Assuming you haven't trashed your rep yet, it's simply a case of declaring on the biggest rival the turn before UN finishes, and allying everyone else in. Almost all your allies will vote for you, none will vote for a civ they're at war with, automatic win of the vote

The surefire way to get voted, I believe. But I was getting the impression from vorlon_mi that there's another way?

 

[joe6778]

You need food bonuses for a settler factory to work. I'll try to simplify.

Do this:

- Restart until you have a cow and a river next to you.
- Use your worker to irrigate the cow.
- Build a grannary.
- Build other stuff until you reach a population of 5. <-- VERY IMPORTANT!
- Now build only settlers.

It may seem like magic but you'll be able to produce settlers very quickly this way. Also read this



Play with no barbarians and don't worry about the AI civs.



Forget diplomacy. For beginners conquest victory is the simplest and cleanest way to win. Really.

Follow the steps above and you'll see a big difference in your game.

I find it impossible to win any other way but on points.

Win by Conquest? How? Rivals get dozens of cities in the beginning of the game or they're across bodies of water that I can't get to until later in the game. And even when I AM able to reach them, I need to have a massive attack force to have a chance. I've been fighting the Iroquois for about 100 years in my current game, and though I'm on the verge of conquering them, there are five other rivals with dozens of cities between them.

It's the early 1800's- there is no way that I can win by conquest. And this has been the pattern in all of my games. How can you conquer 100 cities during the course of a game when it takes about eight strong units to have a chance at one city?

The closest I ever came to winning other than on points is when I almost built the UN, and another time when I had three parts left to build of my spaceship.

 

[joe6778]

@sanabas: Point taken about holding the vote as soon as the UN is built.
Also, about starting your prebuild early.

I get the sense that Joe is still working on planning ahead, and is a bit more
reactive. My suggestion of delaying the UN vote was intended to give him
a chance to stop, catch a breath, and start some serious sucking up to the
other AIs. It can be frustrating if you've been concentrating on winding down
a war or some other project, and find yourself 3 turns from finishing the UN
and you haven't yet spread the wealth around.
The AI doesn't do prebuilds very well (at all?), so even a 6 turn prebuild
in a city with a factory should give you a good head start. I don't think
that a wonder cascade is likely in early Modern Times.

A prebuild reaching 1000 shields as one researches Fission...hmmm.
If one assumes a city producing around 30 spt, that would mean starting
the prebuild roughly 30-33 turns before completing Fission. With the
research costs of late Industrial/early Modern techs, one is probably
going to be getting techs every 5-6 turns. That means starting your
prebuild for the UN while still in the Industrial age, perhaps 3-5 techs
before you can get Fission. That's planning ahead!

Now, the math works out much better if you can get a city that
is not your capital (perhaps the one with the FP?) that can produce
40 or 50 spt. That allows one to start the palace prebuild only 20 turns
ahead, and only 2 or 3 techs ahead of Fission.

I totally agree with planning ahead; I just wanted to suggest some
easy-to-follow steps that would improve his chances, once the
UN is built.

vorlon_mi

What do you mean by "prebuild"?

I've noticed that in all my games, my best city produces way less shields than my rivals (sometimes half as much).

How can I get more output from most of my cities? I've built railroads, mines, etc., but I still lag behind. My best city produces maybe 20-30 shields. And the excessive amount of corruption and waste doesn't help, either.

It seems like another way the AI gets the edge- faster wonders, faster expansion, more production, more units, etc. I'm still trying to build settlers and my rivals have already built a wonder and 10 military units.

 

[Sashie VII]

Prebuild is basically 'building' a wonder before you can actually build it

An example is building a palace as a prebuild for the Great Library when you haven't obtained Literature. You accumulate the shields, the when you have the tech, you switch the production to the Great Library. That way, you have a head start (AIs don't do prebuilds). This tactic allows you to snag wonders even if you're lagging behind technologically.

 

[vmxa]

I find it impossible to win any other way but on points.

Win by Conquest? How? Rivals get dozens of cities in the beginning of the game or they're across bodies of water that I can't get to until later in the game.

Joe it has been layed out in this thread how to get a conquest by what 1595?
As the games have lessor start locations or higher difficulties or special rules, you have to take more care in the ealry part.

All your troubles come from not maximizing your early turns. At this level you can afford to do less than great, but you have to at least do ok.

By not getting more out of the early turns, you start to doom the later part of the game. You should not have to face equal units after you get to the middle ages, so it takes less troops.

The number of towns, only means more to capture or raze. When you get to the Industrial Age and find you are not ahead of them in tech, you have done something less than you should have with your empire.

Now if you know the game,that is not fatal, but for those that don't it could be fatal.

 

[Brain]

Win by Conquest? How?

Okay. If you were posting somewhere else than CivFanatics I would think you're a troll. I'll try once more. Please read carefully.

Everyone is telling you to slow down. DON'T start a new game and play it out until the modern age. Slow down! Save the game at 4000 BC, then again at about 2500 BC, then again at 1500 BC, and post those saves here.

We told you what to do, but you don't seem to be listening if you're still having the same problems. If you post saves we can give you more specific tips.

 

[jkk]

This is an extremely helpful thread (just finished a full reading). In some ways, I come here in Joe's state: getting thumped on Warlord after being a good Civ1 and Civ2 player. (The difference is that I haven't had a 'blame the game' phase, nor do I have trouble with the basic mechanics of combat. Get me in a fight, I'm fine; it's the peace I can't win.) I look around here, see that some people play on Deity, and assume I can learn to do so as well. Just a matter of figuring out what I do wrong, most likely in the very early going when every single action you take is magnified dozens of times by the end.

That's my own bit of advice for Joe, and it's based on the principle of compound interest. That which you do at start--every gold you spend, every action you take, even every movement your units make--it either earns you interest or causes you to pay interest. That is, if it was a good move, you reap its rewards on top of its rewards unless/until it becomes obsolete. If it was a bad move, you suffer for it just as long. A worker action in 4000 BC is many times more important than one in 200 AD, because if you could do the math, that worker action in 4000 probably buys you (or costs you) dozens in 200 AD.

Now, here's what this thread has taught me (that I'm doing wrong). I hope this little Revolutionary Self-Criticism Session helps to guide others:

1) I have failed to build enough workers. In the early stages, every city that is not surrounded by roads must have its own personal worker chugging away at that task until complete. However many un-fully-roaded cities I have in my nation is the minimum number of workers I need. I fall behind on gold and research. Both of those are commerce-based. Obviously, therefore, early builds of workers mean earlier commerce which means earlier money and research. Earlier. Earlier. That's my mantra. They can always later be added into another city if they're burdensome.

2) I have reflexively built buildings I didn't need, especially granaries. This was wasteful on both construction and maintenance. I must do a better job of deciding what building is right for a given town. I should be able to determine that by looking at its surplus food and current happiness, among other factors. Obviously, cities hampered by corruption will take a long time to build buildings, which makes them fair candidates to build units instead.

3) I have failed to use specialist cities in single-space unused tiles within my empire. Build a settler, build a city there, set it on specialist and collect the money or research. Doesn't grow into a needy, clingy metropolis, supports a few units, uses that spot of terrain beneficially. Good way to use up one or two bits of grassland laying around untilled, without screwing up the major cities. It is okay to have podunks that never build anything much.

4) In my trading, I've been too quick to accept payment other than techs, luxuries/resources or this much gold per turn. I should focus on the above, while remaining open to the benefits of others (such as serial contact trades that get you into touch with the rest of the whole world).

5) I have not been opportunistic enough. I have failed to see all the potential directions for a given city, wanting simply to make them all big strong cities. I've shown some good opportunism in diplomacy, such as bribing everyone to gang up on and ruin my enemy, but there have been a lot of other countries I let live when I should not have. If they could crush me, they would. Ergo, I should show no mercy.

6) I have not tried all the options available to me. I have never 'mobilized' my nation for war. I have never been willing to be a Republic when at peace but a Monarchy when at war, for example. I have not used the wait at end of turn bit, and tweaked my taxes/research on the final turn of discovery. I haven't rush built enough under Despotism.

7) I have attempted to build wonders before Adam Smith's. And failed every time, ended up building a rassafrackin' barracks with 292 shields. No more early wonders, period, no matter how cool and fun it sounds. If I want one I'll pry it from their cold, dead fingers. The only Wonder in the early game that's relevant to me is that it's a Wonder I haven't figured this out before now and sworn them off.

I'll keep reading and mostly watching, chiming in now and again. But mostly I'm going to take it to the AI, with both barrels, and each time I'll get a little bit better. I'm assuming that's how all the rock stars here got so good, so obviously it's an effective method.