Total War: Rome II Announced

[scheva007]

I know what S2 does with its clan rating. Although it can mis the ball. I remember kiso minamoto being rated as easy or normal, but everyone agress that it is probably the hardest clan in RotS.

What im pointing at is how in the original Rome, the roman factions were too strong. They had the best units, and the best buildings. Egypt would go mental every campaign, and the seleucids died within 10 turns. Every time. I rather have them change that

 

[PhilBowles]

I know what S2 does with its clan rating. Although it can mis the ball. I remember kiso minamoto being rated as easy or normal, but everyone agress that it is probably the hardest clan in RotS.

What im pointing at is how in the original Rome, the roman factions were too strong. They had the best units, and the best buildings. Egypt would go mental every campaign, and the seleucids died within 10 turns. Every time. I rather have them change that

Haven't played enough Rome, but the Maratha had this issue in Empire, partly due to starting position (no real threats, against technologically inferior factions, and only three of those), but I think intrinsically they were pretty strong (in a game based around cavalry and gun lines, the Maratha probably had the game's best cavalry).

I also find it disappointing that starting positions are so poorly-balanced that campaigns will always turn out much the same way - at least, as in your Seleucid example, certain factions will have a starting position the AI can't handle and will die within the first few turns. I was looking forward to the Otomo DLC as a possible buff that would make the Shimazu campaign more difficult - instead the Otomo became weaker as the AI can't overcome the greater starting disadvantages they face as a faction designed to be played. And the fact that the Tokugawa always get wiped out first spoils immersion when you're aiming for something that approaches the historical situation.

 

[Darth Feather]

Hopefully Egypt doesn't get OP chariots, that would blow. (they should be useless on rough terrain and in forrests.)

 

[Greizer85]

I wish they'd go back to the old style 'board game' map and movement between provinces, not within them. It's easy to lose track of your tiny armies in the vastness of the wilderness... Also, nothing's more pleasant than having small groups of rebels constantly spawn in your provinces to hinder the flow of your reinforcements (/sarcasm).

The AI in Rome and Medieval II was atrociously bad... The very first TW game had the best AI imo, although even there it tended to suicide its general needlessly. They should make the AI protect its general at all costs, only engaging units in desperate circumstances. And ffs make the AI keep its grand formation instead of chasing a lone ranged unit with a group of infantry! I almost felt sorry for my enemies in Medieval and Rome, reading kill counts after battles with my all-horse archer armies. '12 casualties, 1239 enemies killed or captured.'

 

[PhilBowles]

Hopefully Egypt doesn't get OP chariots, that would blow. (they should be useless on rough terrain and in forrests.)

Probably they'll work much like cavalry in TW games generally - so they're nominally less effective in forests, but not to a degree that makes them useless.

The AI in Rome and Medieval II was atrociously bad... The very first TW game had the best AI imo, although even there it tended to suicide its general needlessly. They should make the AI protect its general at all costs, only engaging units in desperate circumstances. And ffs make the AI keep its grand formation instead of chasing a lone ranged unit with a group of infantry! I almost felt sorry for my enemies in Medieval and Rome, reading kill counts after battles with my all-horse archer armies. '12 casualties, 1239 enemies killed or captured.'

The first Shogun is the only TW game I've never played. MII's AI is definitely the worst I've encountered (especially in sieges, a problem for TW AI in all incarnations). Rome's was not good, but I could at least see it adapt to circumstance occasionally and - if only because of the slower game pace - there was more room for manoeuvre and actual tactical play than in Shogun 2 (where the AI will generally just rush)

 

[Quintillus]

Haven't played Empire, but I'm not intrinsically opposed to having noticeably weak and noticeably strong factions. Some factions should lose early 90% of the time, if they were weak historically. I'd rather have that than artificial balance. Although I can't disagree that the Roman factions may well be too strong in RTW - at least if their territorial progression is supposed to happen approximately when it did historically. (Though perhaps part of this is due to the general lack of peace in Total War games) And yeah, I'm pretty sure the Seleucids died in... about 10 turns... in my current game. Completely due to the AI. Which is rather fast.

Greizer85, I'd agree with you in general (no pun intended). It's a tough balance for the difference a general charge can make, particularly in Medieval if you have few other heavy cavalry, versus the need to protect the general. It isn't uncommon for a general's charge to cause the enemy to route. If the general can flank the enemy and charge from behind, huge losses can be inflicted, and even from the front the lines can break. Come to think of it, the AI doesn't try to flank much in general.

But then you do get situations like the last big battle I fought. Spain charged with both their king and their heir apparent right at the front of their 600+ strong army. They fought effectively, inflicting many casualties. But inevitably, first their king, and then their heir, were slain. So what they got was a Pyrrhic victory. A greatly reduced Roman army, but Spain had no more family members and fell to rebels. No human would have done that. Even me, and I lost an awful lot of generals when not really necessary in combat early that game.

 

[PhilBowles]

Haven't played Empire, but I'm not intrinsically opposed to having noticeably weak and noticeably strong factions. Some factions should lose early 90% of the time, if they were weak historically.

There should definitely be differences in the difficulty levels of different factions, but there's generally no correlation in existing TW games between which factions are strong and which were historically strong. In Shogun 2 the Shimazu and Chosokabe have a fairly easy ride, but neither clan was prominent in the historical Sengoku Jidai - while the Tokugawa (who formed the subsequent Shogunate) have a much harder time (although it is true that historically they were an unlikely candidate at the time).

As for Empire, sadly the Maratha just weren't very well thought-out for the game. You have a TW game built around multiple theatres of war, yet have a faction confined to India with no reason to go elsewhere. You have a game that adds naval combat to the series, yet have a faction with no need for either sea trade routes or any kind of naval warfare. You have a diplomacy system that adds options like technology trading, but you only have access to three civs directly and are necessarily at war with all three at some stage in the game. In the hypothetical Empire II, the Persians should be a playable faction and AI Europeans should more actively attempt to colonise India or support their allied Indian factions.

Greizer85, I'd agree with you in general (no pun intended). It's a tough balance for the difference a general charge can make, particularly in Medieval if you have few other heavy cavalry, versus the need to protect the general. It isn't uncommon for a general's charge to cause the enemy to route. If the general can flank the enemy and charge from behind, huge losses can be inflicted, and even from the front the lines can break. Come to think of it, the AI doesn't try to flank much in general.

But then you do get situations like the last big battle I fought. Spain charged with both their king and their heir apparent right at the front of their 600+ strong army. They fought effectively, inflicting many casualties. But inevitably, first their king, and then their heir, were slain. So what they got was a Pyrrhic victory. A greatly reduced Roman army, but Spain had no more family members and fell to rebels. No human would have done that. Even me, and I lost an awful lot of generals when not really necessary in combat early that game.

I've been thinking the AI in future should be coded to consider the status of individual characters in the way a historical power would - so if a faction leader or heir is at risk, they would be more inclined to make peace (also I miss Medieval II's hostage system where you could take valuable generals hostage on occasion).

 

[Maniacal]

Link to video.

Finally some shots of the campaign map! .. and I am confused as to whether I am looking at a Total War game for Civ5 and also really confused as to how that is supposed to resemble the Egyptian Delta...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-06-06-total-war-rome-2-preview-fights-of-the-old-republic

Seriously, the hell is this?

Spoiler :

And where is the Sphinx?!

EDIT: Minimaps from the screenshots, while probably not perfect it is a massive step up from previous non-Shogun TW games! I am quite pleased with the amount of regions.

Spoiler :

 

[Joecoolyo]

Wait, the Nile is navigable? Awesome!

 

[salty mud]

The Nile river could use some work, yes, but I imagine that it's best to look that way because it is navigable. The series of deltas would probably lead to confusion and pathing issues, so it's not too big of a deal.

But I think the map looks beautiful. Worth the wait. Nice and bright with lots of colours.

 

[PhilBowles]

Seriously, the hell is this?

Spoiler :

And where is the Sphinx?!

Never mind the poor Sphinx, the Pyramids are all the same size, which is equally wrong.

EDIT: Minimaps from the screenshots, while probably not perfect it is a massive step up from previous non-Shogun TW games! I am quite pleased with the amount of regions.

There are supposed to be well over 100 - over twice as many as Shogun 2, IIRC. There seem to be rather too few in Britannia, and the ones there are trace the modern national borders.

 

[MadDjinn]

I picked up a usb stick with a bunch of photos/etc at E3, if anyone wants them. I think it's pretty much all stuff that has been shown before though. There's some concept art in there as well.

edit:

I also sat through the demo, but I'm not quite sure if they showed anything 'new' at E3.