Trade routes- internal vs. external

[Mr. Shadows]

I've read over and over again that Deity players BY FAR prefer internal trade routes. That makes sense because the extra food is fantastic bu where does your money come from? I've been selling the iron and horses that I don't need for 2 gpt and I still wind up in money trouble. I know I build too many tile improvements too early but I don't think that explains it. I build markets fairly early, as well as banks in the mid-game. Upgrading troops costs a fortune (not to mention maintenance), and CS alliances are key. How do you keep the money flowing without running a bunch of external TRs? I understand just about everything I read on this forum, but this piece of advice makes it sound like gold grows on trees. What are you doing that's so much better?

 

[Erneiz Hyde]

The only tile improvement that costs maintenance is road so that's certainly not it. Aside from strategics, sell excess luxes as well. You only need 2-3 internal trade route going to capital imo, the rest can be external.

 

[Acken]

Tradition has free buildings and Monarchy so money is rarely a problem. On the other hand Liberty can be difficult for the treasury with more maintenance to pay and no "in-tree" gold. Using some external route is actually not a bad idea for Liberty considering you have to control growth anyway.

Having Tithe can also make a substantial difference.

The reason why people preffer food is that population ALSO boosts your gold output. Every pop is worth 1.1 gold through the trade network and every capital pop is worth 0.15*city_number-1. With monarchy you can add 0.5 on that number making it more than 1.

Also more food allows for an easier time working gold tiles !

 

[stormtrooper412]

I generally don't have full control of my economy. It starts off flying, then drops off then just as I need the endgame loans for SS parts/CS votes all of it comes together and I have massive gpt and I can't really explain how

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Thanks, I'll have to keep a close eye on exactly what's going on; I realize this thread is a little vague. I've had good luck getting tithe but I didn't know that's how pop effects gold. I onew bigger cities made more money but it's good to know that's how it's calculated.

 

[stormtrooper412]

If your religion is up early, you can spread your Tithe around efficiently and that adds up a lot. I tried an experiment modded game on Emperor a while ago and Tithe kept my gpt in the 200s all game long until it rocketed even more

 

[Mr. Shadows]

I'm currently playing Siam and I'm getting a ton of faith from copper and salt via pantheon and a lucky alliance with Vatican City. I freed and returned the same worker twice in a matter of 10 turns or so while taking out the barb camp they targeted. Gotta love that. The whole continent is following my religeon (with tithe) except for the Huns who have a ton of cities and a massive army. The only thing keeping me alive is the fact that I bribed Atilla to attack France. I'd cheerfully start converting his cities (it would be easy to do) but I'm afraid that he'll attack if I do. I'll take a decisive tech lead soon but I'm not there yet. In the mean time I have a bunch of CBs that I can't upgrade with my 1-2 gpt. I'm having to hammer out new troops. All of my TRs are external just to keep my head above water. If I'm still in good shape in 20-30 turns I should start snow-balling but I'm sure I could have been in a more comfortable position by now. I appreciate the advice, but I suppose experience is still the best teacher.I leveraged trad. for three free Wats but it cost me a policy while I waited for amphitheatres. I took a point in piety and I have Asceticism for happy shrines. This game still looks very winnable but I'm still trying to hone my edge. Right now my money problems are killing my growth because I don't have a lot of food in my cap and I can't afford any internal trade routes. This has been a recurring theme for me lately.

 

[stormtrooper412]

If he didn't found a religion, spread all you want

 

[Mr. Shadows]

I'm not sure if he founded or just got it from Theodora before he killed her. I suspect he founded though. I know he's producing missionaries at the very least. Not many of them, but I freed one from a barb and gave it back to him.

 

[stormtrooper412]

If he got it from dead Theo, you should spread freely and he shouldn't mind because the AI only gets pissed if you're spreading when they have founded their own. Someone confirm this

 

[Kriogen]

If he got it from dead Theo, you should spread freely and he shouldn't mind because the AI only gets pissed if you're spreading when they have founded their own. Someone confirm this

True.

I founded religion (because of luck). Persia didn't founded yet. I send missionary in some of their cities and get green diplo line (..adopt my religion). Then Persia founded religion (5th, last). I send another missionary and green turned into red (I spread religion while they are). Not long after, Ethiopia (had DoF with them), informed me that Daruis is ploting against me ... war was brutal

The same civ, in the same game turned from happy (before they founded) to angry (after they founded).

If civ doesn't found a religion, they will be happy, if they found they will be angry to the point they will turn hostile.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

As a side note Siam's elephants don't seem to get much love on here but right now I'm really glad I have them. The 6-7 CBs I have are just pea-shooters to the muskets and knights I'd be facing if Attila pulled the trigger on me but I do have four elephants that I know can stand up to them. I'd hate like hell for him to attack me but at least I'm not without weapons. At this point I may just donate most of the CBs to city states once I get a few muskets of my own on line. I think I've got like three XBs as it is. I'll probably upgrade the CBs that have the most promotion and just turn the rest into some CS influence. I have Patronage unlocked, and consulates so donating 4-5 of them will get rid of the maintenance and get me a friendship at minimum. It still seems like a waste though. I'd much rather keep them as Gatling Guns and spend my hammers on something else but I just don't have that kind of money. Starting next to the Huns is expensive

 

[Wild_Woojsha]

Another thing I have seen the pros do and now do on my own is negotiating ridiculous peace deals from the AI. They'll usually give you every last dime in their treasury to make peace, and its a good way to clean them out in the early game after stealing their workers. That's why its usually a good idea to declare war on the first few civs you meet, try and steal their workers, and ignore them until they offer peace and can be robbed. Other than that, its all about math and timing like everything else in this game. Also only keeping a bare bones military with a soldier in every city when going tradition, building only the bare essential buildings in cities to save upkeep, selling every resource at 7gpt, not building roads until population is high enough for profit, selling strat resources at 2 gpt (I always forget to do this), taking Tithe or church property, etc. I prefer internal trade routes now though since there is nothing better than a high population city in this game. Accept for maybe a bunch of high population cities...

 

[joncnunn]

I've read over and over again that Deity players BY FAR prefer internal trade routes. That makes sense because the extra food is fantastic bu where does your money come from? I've been selling the iron and horses that I don't need for 2 gpt and I still wind up in money trouble. I know I build too many tile improvements too early but I don't think that explains it. I build markets fairly early, as well as banks in the mid-game. Upgrading troops costs a fortune (not to mention maintenance), and CS alliances are key. How do you keep the money flowing without running a bunch of external TRs? I understand just about everything I read on this forum, but this piece of advice makes it sound like gold grows on trees. What are you doing that's so much better?

The money comes from Internal food routes to the capital + Monarchy. Monarchy + population growth in the capital really does make money grow on trees.

Roads/Rail is the only thing that costs maintenance.

Upgrading units doesn't increase maintenance compared to old units. (It costs the same per turn in 1800 AD to have an Archer as it does a Machine Gun)

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Well, that explains why I want two food caravans going to my cap asap. With monarchy thats more science, more hammers AND more gold in the city that gets a happiness bonus. I'm cinvinced. I was referring to the cost of the unit upgrade itself, not the maintenance cost though. XBs are already starting to fade and by the time I have money to upgrade the CBs to XBs and then gats I think I'll want to be investing in CS aliiances. I want to see if I can win this game but I'm already seeing a lot of things I wish I'd done differently. I've always liked Siam's bonuses but I haven't used them all that much. Thanks for the help!

 

[sun8119]

Actually running internal routes was one of the best tips I ever got when I started playing DCL series. I have grown 50+ pop capitals before T250 which was not possible before. And money will come eventually if you are playing Tradition. I still run maybe 1 or even 2 external routes if it's profitable or for CS quests.

The best setup I like is a coastal capital and 3 expansions all running food ships to the cap (that is +24 food, even more later)

 

[stormtrooper412]

Thing is, on Deity Tradition, money comes from Monarchy, Tithe, city connections and resource trades, the latter being the workhorse until cities are good enough to produce gold on their own. One of the (probable) mistakes I keep making is early Markets in cities that have no decent base gpt. External trade routes are a waste because resource trades makes around the same gpt and instead you grow faster

 

[Erneiz Hyde]

There's only so much trade route you can send to the cap though, and I rather send external trade routes instead of sending food caravans to expos unless the city really needs it (because SCIENCE). Somebody can work the math to prove me wrong in this though.

 

[stormtrooper412]

True. But I like to send that extra caravan for a CS quest

 

[Wild_Woojsha]

Those with the best skills and timing can sell every last extra resource early so that their happiness never exceeds 2-3, always bringing new forms in right when the city is about to grow, and spread the growth from internal trade routes around to get all the expos to 15 along with a monster capital. Timing everything perfectly so that the second the 30 turns expires you are ready for the next strategic phase is difficult though, but those who know how to do it run circles around the rest of us. I'm pretty sure this kind of skill only comes through practice though...