Traders and Merchants

[Thunderbrd]

Exactly my thoughts on combat.

Nice pivot to change the subject. I know you feel this way. But that doesn't defend putting unit limits as a balance mechanism on merchants.

Combat can be -really- painful. C2C has a major stack of doom issue.

Since I have a loathing aversion to 1UPT, and for whatever reason, this complaint is what led to the Civ series ending for me at Civ IV, maybe you can help me understand what the problem is, in your opinion, with stacks of doom? AKA, what is the underlying complaint here? Are there not many many ways to counter stacks of doom in C2C or am I missing the point of the complaint entirely?

 

[stoferb]

The only thing I don't like with stacks of doom is the micromanagement, which is more a result of the dumb way the game have coded your interaction with stacks, than with the concept itself. What is most annoying is the way a single unit must be unselected from the stack to do his thing and then he must be put back in the stack for movement somewhere else, and it's not even this by itself but the bugginess that suddenly decide to group him with some random dudes in the stack instead of the whole stack e.t.c. that is simply tiresome. Also, it would be nice if stack attacks actually worked properly but it doesn't.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The only thing I don't like with stacks of doom is the micromanagement, which is more a result of the dumb way the game have coded your interaction with stacks, than with the concept itself. What is most annoying is the way a single unit must be unselected from the stack to do his thing and then he must be put back in the stack for movement somewhere else, and it's not even this by itself but the bugginess that suddenly decide to group him with some random dudes in the stack instead of the whole stack e.t.c. that is simply tiresome. Also, it would be nice if stack attacks actually worked properly but it doesn't.

Any bugginess you point to, I believe must be due to a lack of understanding how the grouping mechanisms are designed to work. Nothing is random about it but if you group groups you are layering your grouping and that can lead to frustrating results. To clear all that, group all and then ungroup all.

The stack attacks have been fixed and that fix may be costly in that it could be why we are having to disable all combat animations to avoid crashes at the moment. I will be looking into this as my main next bug to address. But do test stack attack and let me know if it is still bugged in some way.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Grouping will only work on units that have not finished their turn.

 

[Shoobs]

Nice pivot to change the subject. I know you feel this way. But that doesn't defend putting unit limits as a balance mechanism on merchants.


Since I have a loathing aversion to 1UPT, and for whatever reason, this complaint is what led to the Civ series ending for me at Civ IV, maybe you can help me understand what the problem is, in your opinion, with stacks of doom? AKA, what is the underlying complaint here? Are there not many many ways to counter stacks of doom in C2C or am I missing the point of the complaint entirely?

Don't get too hard on me for that statement. remember I am in v36 not the SVN. My experience is that you have so much extra $$$ you can have stacks going up into the hundreds of units after you pass ancient Era. 100 units in a single stack takes a LONG while to go through, if you're aiming to be tactical about it instead of going "click drag right click".

 

[Thunderbrd]

Don't get too hard on me for that statement. remember I am in v36 not the SVN. My experience is that you have so much extra $$$ you can have stacks going up into the hundreds of units after you pass ancient Era. 100 units in a single stack takes a LONG while to go through, if you're aiming to be tactical about it instead of going "click drag right click".

I wasn't trying to be 'hard' on you. I may have allowed my disdain for the direction things have taken since CivIV but it wasn't aimed at you so much. I just wanted to hear the basis of your opinion. We've done quite a bit this version to get things to not be quite as overflooding and more is to be done. I also find that Size Matters, while really inspiring even more unit training, tends to end up with far less in terms of overall unit counts to manage.

 

[Shoobs]

Honestly, I understand the feeling. I didn't like Civ V much and VI has similar combat.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Do they get access to Withdrawal/Early Withdrawal promotions? If not, that's another possibility. Also, there's always the -1 Terrain Movement Costs effect. Not nearly as strong, but it'll do. Oh, and Use Enemy Roads could probably be useful.

I can see the withdraw working for ships but not for land merchants.

I have not added the Use Enemy Roads yet but think it will be on the first of the speed promotions for land merchants.

I want to add a penalty for all land merchants in Forest (-5%0, Ancient Forest and Jungle (-10%) to reflect the difficulty in maneuvering a caravan in such terrain. I also want to add the situational promotion "Circle the Wagons" which reduces movement by 1 but increases defense or strength.

For naval merchants I want to add "Shallow Draft" as a promotion which increases movement through reefs

But that doesn't defend putting unit limits as a balance mechanism on merchants.

We have other units that we limit because there is no other way to have them balanced so there is no need to defend the limit on merchants either since that is currently the only way we can keep them balanced.

 

[Thunderbrd]

We have other units that we limit because there is no other way to have them balanced

Something I'm trying to find alternative ways to approach because unit limits don't exist in RL.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I want to add a penalty for all land merchants in Forest (-5%0, Ancient Forest and Jungle (-10%) to reflect the difficulty in maneuvering a caravan in such terrain.

Put this on the unitcombat for them then.

I also want to add the situational promotion "Circle the Wagons" which reduces movement by 1 but increases defense or strength.

Doesn't that maneuver basically root them in place and keep them from moving at all? Or are you talking about a greater readiness to do so?

For naval merchants I want to add "Shallow Draft" as a promotion which increases movement through reefs

I like it!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Something I'm trying to find alternative ways to approach because unit limits don't exist in RL.

Actually they do but they more apply to buildings. For example until recently the world population/economy could only support one "Rare Earths mine and processing plant". Something we can't model in Civ.

In the case of merchants it is the demand for goods that should limit their numbers not how many you can produce in a city.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Doesn't that maneuver basically root them in place and keep them from moving at all? Or are you talking about a greater readiness to do so?

I was seeing "Circle the Wagons" as more of a known and usable tactic and best practice, so I suppose it is more of an equipment promotion. Therefore yes, it is not a situational promotion.

 

[Thunderbrd]

In the case of merchants it is the demand for goods that should limit their numbers not how many you can produce in a city.

Would be more palatable.

The problem with limits from a long term perspective is I need merchants to be something you have no limit to build so you can use them to supply the front with equipment updates and to take the spoils of war, equipment dropped by defeated foes, to be sold off if they won't benefit the military. Additionally some supply line mods are planned to interact with this as well.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I was seeing "Circle the Wagons" as more of a known and usable tactic and best practice, so I suppose it is more of an equipment promotion. Therefore yes, it is not a situational promotion.

Or, as you say, a strategic practice, thus a skill promo. Equipment isn't required unless you don't assume all merchants have wagons and such.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Would be more palatable.

The problem with limits from a long term perspective is I need merchants to be something you have no limit to build so you can use them to supply the front with equipment updates and to take the spoils of war, equipment dropped by defeated foes, to be sold off if they won't benefit the military. Additionally some supply line mods are planned to interact with this as well.

Then we may need to split them into different lines of units as I don't see them that way. We already have a Treasure unit that sometimes represents spoils of war and at sea we have war prizes which could do with a bit of expansion.

I don't have a problem with making some other types of Trader like units, if fact I can see the use of resource special Traders. One of my favorite mods had mines produce cartloads of their resource every now and then for use in construction.

We could use something similar perhaps to handle the whole National Smelter/Breeder perhaps. If a mine is placed on a resource that is not in the neighbourhood (3 tiles) of a city a Special Resource caravan is built to link that resource to a city that does not have that resource (since we can't have 2 of any building in a city). Or maybe it should just go to the nearest city. It would allow the mine equivalent building. The problem then comes when the mine changes hands, is destroyed or it depleats.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm not going to stress over detail planning on these unit types at the moment because what you have is a solvent solution for the current needs. I don't expect I'm going to want to address it further for another 2 or more version cycles yet anyhow.

If you want to make them limited on Unlimited National, then give them the bUnlimitedException tag use on their unitclass type.

It's going to take far too much AI structuring to adjust it how I would like for it to be a quick project for me and we may have to option things out with them to allow for a game where they continue to operate as one shot limited units. Maybe we CAN make two different unitlines but I have a problem with the one shot aspect of them as well as the limits and will want to test a complete replacement of that ideal - but as usual I don't want to demand it be 'my' way either. But I'd expect you or anyone else to have to play with a well designed and properly functioning alternative before making up your minds as to which way you want things to be for yourself.

All I know is that for supply line and equipment mods, not having oneshot trader units with unit limits would be beneficial and for Theft and Banditry mods I plan to implement eventually, having unit represented automated ongoing trade cycles would be beneficial as well.

 

[Thunderbrd]

We could use something similar perhaps to handle the whole National Smelter/Breeder perhaps. If a mine is placed on a resource that is not in the neighbourhood (3 tiles) of a city a Special Resource caravan is built to link that resource to a city that does not have that resource (since we can't have 2 of any building in a city). Or maybe it should just go to the nearest city. It would allow the mine equivalent building. The problem then comes when the mine changes hands, is destroyed or it depleats.

You got me thinking on this. Question: if a building provides a resource, is that resource's source considered to be inside city vicinity?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

You got me thinking on this. Question: if a building provides a resource, is that resource's source considered to be inside city vicinity?

Yes it is.

 

[Thunderbrd]

hmm... interesting. Very interesting.

 

[Harrier]

Something I'm trying to find alternative ways to approach because unit limits don't exist in RL.

I disagree.

In the UK, from the age of 16 anyone can try and join the army. Try being the main word, as some do not succeed.

But to join an elite unit - SAS. You have to be in the army first and be very good. Even then a lot who try to join do not get into the SAS ( as well as being considered unsuitable, unfortunetly some do die in training).

So you do need unit limits. Otherwise you can end up with more units in the elite groups than in the regular groups. Which is way out of balance.