Tradition-Honor; How often are they used on Deity

[snarzberry]

Proof that stacking limits need to apply to aircraft.

agreed. It's ridiculous, though it's the logical outcome of the mechanics as they are implemented. But then again, let's say I could only have 10, or 5, per city. It wouldn't make a difference as they have 20 range. Actually I did have them spread out during the game and I just conglomerated them for that screen shot It's more an argument to nerf SBs.

 

[JamesCivFan]

@snarzberry

Excellent game! I took Honor in my second to last game and tried another Archer rush. Well, having 4 cities by turn 70 isn't actually too bad, the only thing I truly missed was this deadly combination of Liberty Finisher--> GE. Hagia Sophia ---> GE. Taking PT and ND. Opening up Rationalism and spamming RA's.

Also, in my current game, I finished Liberty, then Opened up Tradition, Opened up Rationalism, and then took 3 free Opera houses in my 3 cities (I only have those. No wars in my current one yet). Then, I built the Hermitage, and I can say that the extra Culture paid off really well!

I still think that Tradition and Honor need a bit of buffing. That free Great Person is just... too awesome, I guess.

I will definitely try finishing Tradition and trying to go for a Science or Domination Victory with the Koreans or Babylon in my next one though!

 

[JamesCivFan]

I really didn't think it was possible, but as snarzberry said, Rationalism is an overkill, and combined with Liberty, it can be as deadly as this:

http://imageshack.us/f/832/2012040400001.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/2012040400002.jpg/


As you can see, I am in the modern era (just researched Radar) on turn 176. This is a Deity game with all standard settings on a Continents map. As I said in my previous post, that free Great Person can't be surpassed by any Tradition or Honor policy sadly as of now. I still insist that those two Trees should be buffed a bit a least!

PS. I've got a GS coming in 4 turns, as well as an RA in 5 turns. So that means, Stealth Bombers or Rocketry (haven't decided for what type of Victory I will go yet). That should be either nerfed, or as I said before, Tradition and Honor should be buffed.

 

[Tabarnak]

I really didn't think it was possible, but as snarzberry said, Rationalism is an overkill, and combined with Liberty, it can be as deadly as this:

http://imageshack.us/f/832/2012040400001.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/2012040400002.jpg/


As you can see, I am in the modern era (just researched Radar) on turn 176. This is a Deity game with all standard settings on a Continents map. As I said in my previous post, that free Great Person can't be surpassed by any Tradition or Honor policy sadly as of now. I still insist that those two Trees should be buffed a bit a least!

PS. I've got a GS coming in 4 turns, as well as an RA in 5 turns. So that means, Stealth Bombers or Rocketry (haven't decided for what type of Victory I will go yet). That should be either nerfed, or as I said before, Tradition and Honor should be buffed.

Where are your units? What Ghandi is doing? At war or not?

Deity screams RAs. They have so much gold to spend...

 

[JamesCivFan]

Where are your units? What Ghandi is doing? At war or not?

Deity screams RAs. They have so much gold to spend...

I fought absolutely no wars in this game! I just upgraded my knight to a tank and on about turn 220, I had 11 Stealth Bombers. Now I backstabbed India (who's at war with Spain) and I took their capital in 3 turns. I am planning to backstab Spain now, or focus on the other continent to take on Japan and the Songhai.

 

[snarzberry]

@snarzberry

Excellent game! I took Honor in my second to last game and tried another Archer rush. Well, having 4 cities by turn 70 isn't actually too bad, the only thing I truly missed was this deadly combination of Liberty Finisher--> GE. Hagia Sophia ---> GE. Taking PT and ND. Opening up Rationalism and spamming RA's.

Also, in my current game, I finished Liberty, then Opened up Tradition, Opened up Rationalism, and then took 3 free Opera houses in my 3 cities (I only have those. No wars in my current one yet). Then, I built the Hermitage, and I can say that the extra Culture paid off really well!

I still think that Tradition and Honor need a bit of buffing. That free Great Person is just... too awesome, I guess.

I will definitely try finishing Tradition and trying to go for a Science or Domination Victory with the Koreans or Babylon in my next one though!

Nice. Yeah the free GP is so tempting as it comes around the time of those nice wonders, very hard to say no to. We're on the same page about honour and tradition, as I said earlier I hope there will be religious stuff that buffs them in the expansion.

If you do go for a late war, stealth bomber type domination victory I'd love see how much gold you'd get from the honour finisher taking out so many advanced units, it's something I've never done but was suggested in the original stealth bomber strat thread. At that time I thought Liberty - Rationalism was more important than I do now so that's something I might try out. Stealth bombers are not essential, you can completely wipe the map in 50 turns with modern armour or mechs + rocket artillery but at the moment SBs are so much more efficient due to the imbalance of being able to infinitely stack them, as pointed out.

 

[bhavv]

I agree that Liberty provides a larger bonus early on, but tradition and Honor provide bigger bonuses over the whole game.

I wouldn't like to see liberty nerfed as it is perfect as it is. Nerfing it will just mean that no one will use it anymore.

What I would do is, on top of what I suggested earlier:

- Swap collective rule and republic around.
- Swap legalism and landed elite around. Add +2 production bonus to the capital to landed elite.
- Culture buildings added by Legalism are maintenance free
- Buff tradition opener slightly from +3 to +4 culture bonus
- Change Aristocracy happiness bonus to +1 per each citizen in the capital city.
- Change Monarchy to provide +1 gold per citizen in the capital city, and -50% tile purchase gold costs
- Buff Tradition finisher to also add +2 production per city.
- Liberty cannot be active at the same time as Tradition plus any other current restrictions.

Id also make suggestions for Honor, but I never use it so don't know it very well.

 

[GenjiKhan]

Good suggestions,except for one,which doesn't make any sense:

- Liberty cannot be active at the same time as Tradition or Autocracy

The main reason why they allowed Liberty to be active at the same with Autocracy was to buff Autocracy,because almost everybody who gets a lot of cities would pick it up Liberty,because of their bonus .

Id also make suggestions for Honor, but I never use it so don't know it very well.

For honor,it can be something like that:

- Honor Opener also gives culture for every city taken . Cities with Artist specialists and World/National Wonders gives more culture;
- Along with the GG bonus and +15% ,Warrior code gives one unit for free,with no maintain cost(if the unit is killed,the bonus is lost) . Like republic SP,this SP is good for Long run,but this would make it too bad for those who need it ASAP . I'd not say that the GG bonus is useless,because with the GG earned through battles,you can split your troops and flank the enemy(if of course,you have a big army to do it) .

 

[bhavv]

Is autocracy the warmongering one or another one? I don't know about the policy lines that can't be active with freedom because I never use them.

I only said 'cant be active with autocracy' because I thought that was a current restriction, if not then just ignore that.

The only thing I like in Honor is the +2 culture and +1 happiness per garisoned city bonus, and also the 33% lowered upgrade cost underneath it, but I never have enough policies available to take them after completing liberty as Id rather open up commerce, patronage or piety (normally I complete liberty, either side of commerce based on whether I need coastal production or cheaper rush buys, right side of freedom and secularism as a minimum).

 

[JamesCivFan]

Nice. Yeah the free GP is so tempting as it comes around the time of those nice wonders, very hard to say no to. We're on the same page about honour and tradition, as I said earlier I hope there will be religious stuff that buffs them in the expansion.

If you do go for a late war, stealth bomber type domination victory I'd love see how much gold you'd get from the honour finisher taking out so many advanced units, it's something I've never done but was suggested in the original stealth bomber strat thread. At that time I thought Liberty - Rationalism was more important than I do now so that's something I might try out. Stealth bombers are not essential, you can completely wipe the map in 50 turns with modern armour or mechs + rocket artillery but at the moment SBs are so much more efficient due to the imbalance of being able to infinitely stack them, as pointed out.

I will definitely not be at war for a long time after this (in the archer rush game). The thing is that if you do it, pretty much everyone hates you for being a warmonger. That indirectly makes Liberty better, but I won't analyze that. I am just planning to go up to Stealth again by building the PT with the Hagia Sophia GE. And then spamming RA's as usual. I will tell you how much money I am making. Policy wise, I will still take Rationalism and open up Autocracy I believe.

Actually, talking about Tradition. I completely agree with bhavv's arguments. But, I used its current state to my advantage by getting a bit out of my way from Rationalism, and getting the 3 free Opera houses. I got 2 cultural CS's as well, thanks to the convenience the ND gave me. I have enough culture now to not only have filled the left Rationalism column, but to have taken 3 policies from Autocracy already, on turn 220 (Opener, and 2 more). But, that said, Tradition is considered an opener Policy Tree so swapping the "free cultural buildings" and putting it further down is a must I believe.

 

[JamesCivFan]

Is autocracy the warmongering one or another one? I don't know about the policy lines that can't be active with freedom because I never use them.

I only said 'cant be active with autocracy' because I thought that was a current restriction, if not then just ignore that.

Autocracy is the warmongering one yes. Its opener provides less maintenance costs for units and it has policies like getting more happiness out of courthouses, purchasing units for 33% less, etc etc.

 

[bhavv]

I do like how honour already provides a strong economic boost from the right hand side, but I think the opener and policy investment required is lame.

Maybe move the +2 culture per garrison to the opener, +1 happiness per garrison to the walls etc happiness policy, add culture per kill to the top left policy and add something new and nice to replace the middle right policy.

My idea would be for the top right policy to provide 2 maintenance free units, with a choice of either spearmen or archers which start with the morale promotion even if you don't have the prerequesite techs yet, with the middle right bonuses being merged as above. Maybe for the finisher you should get a choice of another 2 maintenance free units with morale plus 30 experience, available from all the units currently available to you.

 

[JamesCivFan]

I like the idea of having free units. The number definitely needs playtesting though so it won't get too overpowered. Choosing 2 warriors or 2 archers would be a real boost early game, making Honor a definite choice if you want to rush somebody quickly. Of course, that would also give the AI an even bigger bonus, having 2 more warriors or archers to rush you, but I think it would benefit the human much more than the AI.

 

[snarzberry]

That would be like having a mini el-dorado as a policy, probably overpowered. I like the idea of some bonus, like culture or something, for taking cities with honour. Maybe another idea would be an honour policy that reduces city resistance when captured. That would make honour - autocracy a good (better) combination.

 

[Kaosprophet]

That would be like having a mini el-dorado as a policy, probably overpowered.

El Dorado - 500 gold to the first player who finds it
Settler - 500 gold to purchase
Collective Rule: free settler.

There's already a full El Dorado as a policy

(Or is this an argument that Liberty needs nerfing?)

 

[snarzberry]

ha ha true. yes I've been arguing all along that I think liberty is a bit too strong and that is definitely one of the reasons. Would a policy that strong provide balance? Maybe, but then I think we're heading down the path of making policiess too strong and forgetting about fundamental play.

 

[bhavv]

Hmmm, or how about this for the policy re order:

This way players can still get their free worker and settler from their second and third policies, but they cant take the settler first. You could also take the +1 production per city before the free settler / worker too ... not that that would be preferable

Being able to pick up landed elite, aristocracy and monarch for your 2nd-4th policies especially if they were buffed as I suggested would be a very strong alternative too.

Ok, now my ideas for Honor:

Military Tradition - Military units gain 50% more experience, +10% combat strength for units adjacent to other units.

Discipline - 2 free units appear near your capital which are maintenance free and start with the morale promotion. Choose either Warriors or Archers, even if you have not researched archery. Also gain a free barracks in your capital.

Finisher - Earn gold for each enemy unit killed. All military buildings are now maintenance free and construct 15% faster (barracks, armoury, military academy)

 

[JamesCivFan]

Hmmm, or how about this for the policy re order:

This way players can still get their free worker and settler from their second and third policies, but they cant take the settler first. You could also take the +1 production per city before the free settler / worker too ... not that that would be preferable

Being able to pick up landed elite, aristocracy and monarch for your 2nd-4th policies especially if they were buffed as I suggested would be a very strong alternative too.

Ok, now my ideas for Honor:

Military Tradition - Military units gain 50% more experience, +10% combat strength for units adjacent to other units.

Discipline - 2 free units appear near your capital which are maintenance free and start with the morale promotion. Choose either Spearmen or Archers, even if you have not researched the prerequisites. Also gain a free barracks in your first 4 cities.

Finisher - Earn gold for each enemy unit killed. All military buildings are now maintenance free and construct 15% faster (barracks, armoury, military academy)

I generally like the idea of the order you put the policies in Tradition and Liberty. About Honor, it will get overpowered if you get 2 free units and free barracks in your first 4 cities. Maybe 1 unit would be enough (Archer= 200g, Warrior= 200g) to be equal. I like the finisher a lot though, it goes on par with that free Great Person you get from Liberty.

 

[bhavv]

1 unit is nothing compared to a free settler and worker, 2 archers isnt overpowered at all, thats like 12-18 turns saved in the early game.

I suppose just a barracks in the capital would be ok on top of that, 2 units, 1 barracks is close enough to the free worker + settler.

And warriors instead of spearmen then.

 

[snarzberry]

The 2 free archers would make an early rush on your neighbour a 100% proposition, that's why I think it'd be overpowered.