This is experiment 2 in the Tradition vs Progress series I started in this thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...a-side-by-side-actual-game-comparison.659905/
In my last game, the number 1 critique was that I was playing the two styles "the same". They both aren't designed to do exactly the same things so I was denying strength to one or the other with a extremely similar build style.
I both agree and disagree with that. On the one hand, its true that the two styles don't play 100% the same. On the other, in an experiment you try to limit variables, and if one side is going more wonders or a different religion, you can't be sure that it wasn't the wonder or religion that was the dominant factor in differences instead of the tree decision.
So I tried to compromise a bit. My goal was a wide play for both styles (the map I got was perfect for wide and people are suggesting Tradition is actually better for wide so I wanted to test that). I went with the same city locations for both, however, I did add in a little more wonder work for Tradition, and tried to optimize my pantheon to the different styles.
My Disclaimer: I am not a perfect player, and certainly don't claim that this run is a perfect representation. But I think its a reasonable example that generates reasonable conclusions.
Setting the Stage
I turned off Ancient Ruins, City States, Barbarians with a Communitas_79 map on Immortal. I also used France, which has no real early game bonuses and so won't push the needle one way or the other.
I provide the first saved game at the decision point between Progress and Tradition, and then play both from that point on.
Important Note: I did my Tradition run first, than Progress (last time it was vice versa).
Main Similarities and Differences
So in terms of goalpost for this game, here were the general themes I went with.
1) Both tried to get to 8 cities (I would have gone for more eventually, but was playing to about 125 turns so 8 was a reasonable number imo).
2) Both built Petra as I had a good map for it. Both went for Oracle as well, however with Tradition I also wanted the Hanging Gardens as well.
3) Progress went for Commerce as my pantheon, maximizing the early Petra and the focus on city connections. Tradition went wisdom, to make use of the early specialist and to compensate for my usual weakness in science.
4) Normally with Progress I would have considered more off river settling, but honestly in this game the river spots I got were pretty good.
5) For religion, both took the Scholasticism and CoE.
Overall Notes
1) Tradition had faster creation of Petra and initial settlers, as expected.
2) Even though I pushed a bit to get workers earlier with Tradition, the free worker +25% faster development time is very very noticeable. Progress simply gets terrain benefits faster and more often. I had plenty of time to get roads with Progress, not with Tradition.
3) From an expansion standpoint, even though Tradition kicks it off quicker, Tradition also has a lot of conflicts it has to balance. You want to keep your capital at 6 for the culture, I wanted to also ensure the capital was in a good shape for the Hanging Gardens.
So ultimately what this means was, while Tradition is faster at getting your first 2 or 3 extra cities, past that point Progress catches up or even surpasses. Progress can both use its capital a bit more heavily for settlers (as your not as worried about keeping it strong), but its satellites also get to a place where they can build settlers much faster than tradition cities.
4) The gold of progress (+commerce) was very noticable. I was generally able to rush build the shrine in every satelite I made as progress, and often the monument that followed as well. I was not able to do that as Tradition. This is an X factor that I think people forget about, they look at the +2 production of progress, but forget that the gold matters a lot as well when your first getting those cities online.
5) So towards the end of the scenario, Progress is doing very well on its expanding, ultimately expanding quicker than Tradition. Which may have been its downfall.
My happiness was low with the Tradition run, but it crashed on Progress. At first I noticed a slight difference in that my scout on the Tradition run had found Songhai earlier and traded for a lux. I pushed for that on the progress run, and initially that squared things away. However, my happiness kept dropping, getting to 30%.
On a normal game, this would have meant barb city which would have done a lot of damage, as I had basically no military (when people ask what we mean that the AI is not aggressive enough, this is what we mean). However, the happiness was so bad that I actually lost a city to a rebellion towards the end of the run!! Further, twice I had my settlers in their spots ready to go, but couldn't settle because of happiness.
This was a major difference between the two runs, so different I may try the P run again with a slightly slower expansion to see if it makes a big difference, for as far as I know Tradition doesn't get any happiness from its policy yet so I am not sure why progress had such a worse time of it.
6) Religion wise, Progress got slightly faster religion...although frankly both of my religion runs were poor (Anything past Turn 100 is really rolling the die on religion). I think the slightly faster shrines may have helped, but ultimately I think the faith from Commerce was more impactful. Since both runs ultimately got their religion and the same selections, I wouldn't say this was a Progress benefit in this case, and mainly a draw.
General Conclusions
1) Tradition was faster expanding initially, but Progress was ultimately expanding faster later.
2) At the end of the run, Tradition had managed to grab the Oracle in 1 turn (with an GE and a hit of CoE). Progress had not even managed the culture Prereq for it yet.
3) Progress had major happiness problems compared to Tradition.
4) Science wise Tradition was slightly ahead. That may have been the result of Wisdom's influence, but its still notable.
5) Culture-wise, Progress was many turns away from its 5th policy, Tradition was working on its 6th.
I think Tradition was the clear winner in this run, which is a marked difference from my first experiment (in the first both were closer with Progress as the leader).
All of the saved games are noted by P or T, followed by the turn number. I will admit I was sloppy with my save recordings, sometimes missing a key mark by several turns. So don't take the turn numbers as gospel, but it should show generally had the two are shaping up.
In my last game, the number 1 critique was that I was playing the two styles "the same". They both aren't designed to do exactly the same things so I was denying strength to one or the other with a extremely similar build style.
I both agree and disagree with that. On the one hand, its true that the two styles don't play 100% the same. On the other, in an experiment you try to limit variables, and if one side is going more wonders or a different religion, you can't be sure that it wasn't the wonder or religion that was the dominant factor in differences instead of the tree decision.
So I tried to compromise a bit. My goal was a wide play for both styles (the map I got was perfect for wide and people are suggesting Tradition is actually better for wide so I wanted to test that). I went with the same city locations for both, however, I did add in a little more wonder work for Tradition, and tried to optimize my pantheon to the different styles.
My Disclaimer: I am not a perfect player, and certainly don't claim that this run is a perfect representation. But I think its a reasonable example that generates reasonable conclusions.
Setting the Stage
I turned off Ancient Ruins, City States, Barbarians with a Communitas_79 map on Immortal. I also used France, which has no real early game bonuses and so won't push the needle one way or the other.
I provide the first saved game at the decision point between Progress and Tradition, and then play both from that point on.
Important Note: I did my Tradition run first, than Progress (last time it was vice versa).
Main Similarities and Differences
So in terms of goalpost for this game, here were the general themes I went with.
1) Both tried to get to 8 cities (I would have gone for more eventually, but was playing to about 125 turns so 8 was a reasonable number imo).
2) Both built Petra as I had a good map for it. Both went for Oracle as well, however with Tradition I also wanted the Hanging Gardens as well.
3) Progress went for Commerce as my pantheon, maximizing the early Petra and the focus on city connections. Tradition went wisdom, to make use of the early specialist and to compensate for my usual weakness in science.
4) Normally with Progress I would have considered more off river settling, but honestly in this game the river spots I got were pretty good.
5) For religion, both took the Scholasticism and CoE.
Overall Notes
1) Tradition had faster creation of Petra and initial settlers, as expected.
2) Even though I pushed a bit to get workers earlier with Tradition, the free worker +25% faster development time is very very noticeable. Progress simply gets terrain benefits faster and more often. I had plenty of time to get roads with Progress, not with Tradition.
3) From an expansion standpoint, even though Tradition kicks it off quicker, Tradition also has a lot of conflicts it has to balance. You want to keep your capital at 6 for the culture, I wanted to also ensure the capital was in a good shape for the Hanging Gardens.
So ultimately what this means was, while Tradition is faster at getting your first 2 or 3 extra cities, past that point Progress catches up or even surpasses. Progress can both use its capital a bit more heavily for settlers (as your not as worried about keeping it strong), but its satellites also get to a place where they can build settlers much faster than tradition cities.
4) The gold of progress (+commerce) was very noticable. I was generally able to rush build the shrine in every satelite I made as progress, and often the monument that followed as well. I was not able to do that as Tradition. This is an X factor that I think people forget about, they look at the +2 production of progress, but forget that the gold matters a lot as well when your first getting those cities online.
5) So towards the end of the scenario, Progress is doing very well on its expanding, ultimately expanding quicker than Tradition. Which may have been its downfall.
My happiness was low with the Tradition run, but it crashed on Progress. At first I noticed a slight difference in that my scout on the Tradition run had found Songhai earlier and traded for a lux. I pushed for that on the progress run, and initially that squared things away. However, my happiness kept dropping, getting to 30%.
On a normal game, this would have meant barb city which would have done a lot of damage, as I had basically no military (when people ask what we mean that the AI is not aggressive enough, this is what we mean). However, the happiness was so bad that I actually lost a city to a rebellion towards the end of the run!! Further, twice I had my settlers in their spots ready to go, but couldn't settle because of happiness.
This was a major difference between the two runs, so different I may try the P run again with a slightly slower expansion to see if it makes a big difference, for as far as I know Tradition doesn't get any happiness from its policy yet so I am not sure why progress had such a worse time of it.
6) Religion wise, Progress got slightly faster religion...although frankly both of my religion runs were poor (Anything past Turn 100 is really rolling the die on religion). I think the slightly faster shrines may have helped, but ultimately I think the faith from Commerce was more impactful. Since both runs ultimately got their religion and the same selections, I wouldn't say this was a Progress benefit in this case, and mainly a draw.
General Conclusions
1) Tradition was faster expanding initially, but Progress was ultimately expanding faster later.
2) At the end of the run, Tradition had managed to grab the Oracle in 1 turn (with an GE and a hit of CoE). Progress had not even managed the culture Prereq for it yet.
3) Progress had major happiness problems compared to Tradition.
4) Science wise Tradition was slightly ahead. That may have been the result of Wisdom's influence, but its still notable.
5) Culture-wise, Progress was many turns away from its 5th policy, Tradition was working on its 6th.
I think Tradition was the clear winner in this run, which is a marked difference from my first experiment (in the first both were closer with Progress as the leader).
All of the saved games are noted by P or T, followed by the turn number. I will admit I was sloppy with my save recordings, sometimes missing a key mark by several turns. So don't take the turn numbers as gospel, but it should show generally had the two are shaping up.
