plarq
Crazy forever
Any comments?I think Glib is not the spirit of trading...
Training game emphasizing trading - Emperor
- Thread starter trikos
- Start date
trikos
Chieftain
Looks good, oopsy poopsy.
I suggest we build 2-3 barracks in the cities we settle next and let them produce veteran military. We could go for a horse/swords combo depending on the resources we get.
I suggest we build 2-3 barracks in the cities we settle next and let them produce veteran military. We could go for a horse/swords combo depending on the resources we get.
oopsy poopsy
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2004
- Messages
- 202
thanks guys. I agree Trikos. I think with all the food the first three cities have to be settlers and workers until they can't take it anymore. Glib? Glib?!? No one has ever accused me of being glib (ok so maybe it's happened once or twice 
). I think in the future I'll keep unit movement to explores or heads towards something 'cause there's no way anyone can follow which movements are moving where by those directions.
). I think in the future I'll keep unit movement to explores or heads towards something 'cause there's no way anyone can follow which movements are moving where by those directions.trikos
Chieftain
Roster:
Jurimax
Oopsy Poopsy
Plarq: up
Bede: on deck
Peacemonger
Trikos
dl123654
Jurimax
Oopsy Poopsy
Plarq: up
Bede: on deck
Peacemonger
Trikos
dl123654
oopsy poopsy
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2004
- Messages
- 202
Now that my turn is done and I'm thinking about it. I think we should trade alphabet soon. I would really like to see if either side has IW and we won't know until we trade for BW. The biggest stumbling block is that I place absolutely 0 value on CB. Those 3 techs up that tree are only useful to us to advance in age. Later on the temples become useful so we can build cathedrals but temples in themselves have no value except for the border expansion and culture, neither is gonna be super important for us. Wait, just thought of something . . . Since I'm not a warmonger type, how important is culture for that strategy? I know the resistance stuff and how willing civs are to deal with you is related to your cultural ratios(eg. in awe of etc...). In people's experience how much does acquiring culture aid in the warmonger strategy? That may make earlier temples a little more important, because of the thousand year doubling effect. I'm just rambling so there you go.
plarq
Crazy forever
Terribly sorry,team.Complete forget 48 hours rule :bashwall ,can I play after Bede's turns?
Trikos01 Log
On the opening check the tech and cash position of every one we know. Alphabet is still to be traded:
Russia will offer Bronze Working and Ceremonial Burial +30g, or Bronze Working and 94g, her entire treasury. That is definitely full value and since it will make any additional trades for her more difficult, go ahead and do the deal. I can then get Ceremonial Burial and 59g from Toku. Done.
Net from this round is two tech and 153g. Using ainwood's tech calculator the two techs by themselves had a beaker value of 128, so our net gain is 281g.
Turns out Russia also holds Mysticism, but Japan does not. No sign of IW yet.
Set Research at Mysticism.
2110
Pop the hut in jungle north and get the expected barbs. Warrior will get promoted or destroyed.
Curragh in NE uncovers Spanish border.
I can buy a worker from Japan, but elect not to as it is considered exploitative pre-1000BC.
Russia offers Mysticism for 330g, 3x beaker cost. Remember that number. That is the expected AI to human mark-up for monopoly knowledge that will build a monument.
2070
Settler pops at Carthage and the barb camp north of Leptis Magna dispatches a warrior towards us.
Illuryians in the north attack our doughty warrior who survives. Another fortifies and the third heads north towards Japan.
Doughty Curragh spots yet another border, the Dutch, right next door to Spain. The Dutch are broke, have no knowledge we don't, while Spain is up IW and Mysticism and has 105g in the bank. Isabella's been doing some horse trading....
Isabella will part with IW for only 450g, a 2.7x premium. No counter parties for it though, so let her keep her knowledge for a while. We could get Mysticism but no money from Russia, so it's not worth the candle.
And I mishandle a curragh, which is going to sink...
2030
Sailing, sailing.
And the Warrior survives another Iluryian.
1990
Warrior heals and moves north and the curraghs sail some more.
I am a little conflicted about the best spot for the last settler, then decide to deviate from the dotmap just a hair and move one west as it preserves the bonus grass and the fishing ville spot in the south
1990-1750
Keep checking the trade screens for any breaks in the situation. Equip a settler and worker at Carthage. Chop a forest at Leptis Magna for a barracks build. Move settler to south of Theveste to build our first fishing camp. With two fish, a hill and a bonus grass, we have a nice tidy little village here. Utica is building towards a granary to become our worker farm.
We need another discussion of city placement.
The borders of Carthage are due to pop in another ten turns so we are going to need protection in the town from the barb village east.
Iron Working is held by three, Mysticism by two. We could buy IW from Spain or Russia, then trade to Japan for Mysticism and possibly cash, or wait until we meet someone else who is preferably ignorant and wealthy.
On the opening check the tech and cash position of every one we know. Alphabet is still to be traded:
Russia will offer Bronze Working and Ceremonial Burial +30g, or Bronze Working and 94g, her entire treasury. That is definitely full value and since it will make any additional trades for her more difficult, go ahead and do the deal. I can then get Ceremonial Burial and 59g from Toku. Done.
Net from this round is two tech and 153g. Using ainwood's tech calculator the two techs by themselves had a beaker value of 128, so our net gain is 281g.
Turns out Russia also holds Mysticism, but Japan does not. No sign of IW yet.
Set Research at Mysticism.
2110
Pop the hut in jungle north and get the expected barbs. Warrior will get promoted or destroyed.
Curragh in NE uncovers Spanish border.
I can buy a worker from Japan, but elect not to as it is considered exploitative pre-1000BC.
Russia offers Mysticism for 330g, 3x beaker cost. Remember that number. That is the expected AI to human mark-up for monopoly knowledge that will build a monument.
2070
Settler pops at Carthage and the barb camp north of Leptis Magna dispatches a warrior towards us.
Illuryians in the north attack our doughty warrior who survives. Another fortifies and the third heads north towards Japan.
Doughty Curragh spots yet another border, the Dutch, right next door to Spain. The Dutch are broke, have no knowledge we don't, while Spain is up IW and Mysticism and has 105g in the bank. Isabella's been doing some horse trading....
Isabella will part with IW for only 450g, a 2.7x premium. No counter parties for it though, so let her keep her knowledge for a while. We could get Mysticism but no money from Russia, so it's not worth the candle.
And I mishandle a curragh, which is going to sink...
2030
Sailing, sailing.
And the Warrior survives another Iluryian.
1990
Warrior heals and moves north and the curraghs sail some more.
I am a little conflicted about the best spot for the last settler, then decide to deviate from the dotmap just a hair and move one west as it preserves the bonus grass and the fishing ville spot in the south
1990-1750
Keep checking the trade screens for any breaks in the situation. Equip a settler and worker at Carthage. Chop a forest at Leptis Magna for a barracks build. Move settler to south of Theveste to build our first fishing camp. With two fish, a hill and a bonus grass, we have a nice tidy little village here. Utica is building towards a granary to become our worker farm.
We need another discussion of city placement.
The borders of Carthage are due to pop in another ten turns so we are going to need protection in the town from the barb village east.
Iron Working is held by three, Mysticism by two. We could buy IW from Spain or Russia, then trade to Japan for Mysticism and possibly cash, or wait until we meet someone else who is preferably ignorant and wealthy.
plarq
Crazy forever
I'd post a "got it" this time 
plarq
Crazy forever
1750BC,IHT:Move Warrior from Leptis Magna to Carthage,lux ->10%,Myst price:Russia 148g,Spain 144g,Japan'll sell IW for 210g.I'll pull trading.Myst from Russia,149g,Cathy is poorer than Isabella,so I give her 5 more bucks for the deal,sell Myst to Japan for IW and 25g(All his gold).
IBT:Utica chops.
1725BC:Check tech,Spain is up HBR,Dutch is down Myst,no one except Dutch connected Iron,no one connect horse.Build Hippo the fishing village on spot.
IBT:Carthage Settler out.
1700BC:Carthage settler move N.
IBT:Volcano erupts.
1675BC:Galley spot German border.
IBT:LM Warrior ->Warrior
1650BC:German is even in tech.
IBT:Japan boots,German warns,Barb galley sinks and Utica riots,sorry.
1625BC:Nothing
IBT:Carthage build another settler
1600BC:Move settler pair
1575BC:Japan learned HBR.
IBT:Great bronze statue was build in Dutch capital.
1550BC:Hire a taxman in Leptis Magna,build Leptis Minor.Russia learned HBR.
1525BC:Horse online.
1500BC:Nothing
1475BC:Total check,played 11t,still pumping out Settlers.Build 3 fish villages.German is up HBR.So only we and Dutch lack HBR now.Gonna clear some barb camp and pop GH by city building.
IBT:Utica chops.
1725BC:Check tech,Spain is up HBR,Dutch is down Myst,no one except Dutch connected Iron,no one connect horse.Build Hippo the fishing village on spot.
IBT:Carthage Settler out.
1700BC:Carthage settler move N.
IBT:Volcano erupts.
1675BC:Galley spot German border.
IBT:LM Warrior ->Warrior
1650BC:German is even in tech.
IBT:Japan boots,German warns,Barb galley sinks and Utica riots,sorry.
1625BC:Nothing
IBT:Carthage build another settler
1600BC:Move settler pair
1575BC:Japan learned HBR.
IBT:Great bronze statue was build in Dutch capital.
1550BC:Hire a taxman in Leptis Magna,build Leptis Minor.Russia learned HBR.
1525BC:Horse online.
1500BC:Nothing
1475BC:Total check,played 11t,still pumping out Settlers.Build 3 fish villages.German is up HBR.So only we and Dutch lack HBR now.Gonna clear some barb camp and pop GH by city building.
trikos
Chieftain
I got some RL stuff coming today. I will look at the game tonight
peacemonger
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2004
- Messages
- 71
ok...."got it" but haven't digested it yet. won't play until we've had at least 24hrs for team discussion and rik's trade evals. 'sok?
trikos
Chieftain
@peacemonger: I agree. We should discuss the current situation in the game before more turns are played.
I still haven't looked at the game...
Roster:
Peacemonger - up
Trikos - on deck
dl123654
Jurimax
Oopsy Poopsy
Plarq
Bede
I still haven't looked at the game...
Roster:
Peacemonger - up
Trikos - on deck
dl123654
Jurimax
Oopsy Poopsy
Plarq
Bede
I didn't get a PM or an email saying I had to check a save.
I'll check the Bede 1750 BC save.
I'll check the Bede 1750 BC save.
plarq said:
There isn't much to comment on; the 2fer1 succeeded and there were no good alternatives. So we can only look at 2 things:
1 - Was the timing ok ?
2 - Was the trading partner the best partner ?
1: This is a bit hard for me to judge as I don't know at what moment in time the civilizations got the techs. Judging from Bede's report Russia and Japan got the techs this turn. If so; we could have waited 3 more turns.
Why?
Because the only danger in waiting is that Japan obtains Mysticism. That, however, is not likely to happen by AI-AI trading due to the Japanese low cash level. Also, if the Japanese got it this turn it means at least 4 turns of research for them.
The benefit of waiting is that we might meet another civ which also holds Myst, (or other techs) and it reduces the price we have to pay for Myst and other techs we want to buy. With the delay Japan could have build up some more money to give to us. If those civs have other techs; we could do a monopoly-trade perhaps; obtaining 3 techs + cash from Japan, Russia, Spain and also of that new civ.
2: Not really. Buying Myst from Russia was not the smartest move; Russia is already far ahead. The scores in 1750 BC are:
1 - Russia 242. 2 - Japan 193. 3 - Netherlands 176. 4 - Carthage 173. 5 - Spain 166.
Plarq's trade effectively increased Russia's lead.
The scores in the 1475 BC save shows this already:
1 - Russia 285 (+43). 2 - Japan 229 (+36). 3 - Carthage 213 (+40) 4 - Netherlands 209 (+33). 5 - Spain 191 (+25). 6 - Germany 182.
We don't want our already strong competitors to get stronger; we want them to slow down.
Rik's conclusion:
The trade itself was good; a nice 2fer1. But (if I interpreted Bede's report correctly) the timing was not ok and the trading partner itself was also not ok. Waiting wouldn't have hurt of and would have given us a chance to rake in more techs and money, while the choice of Russia to buy Myst from was increasing Russia's lead. If instead Myst was bought from Spain, Russia would have gotten nothing at all, thus not increasing their lead by that much.
Jurimax
Duke of Flanders
I agree completely, but I also thought that that was part of the training game, when a trade was available, a team discussion (and most importantly Rik's advice) would point us in the right direction. If we're all just going to do as we please, then what's the point of a training game?
Just my 2 cents.
Greetz Jurimax
Just my 2 cents.
Greetz Jurimax
oopsy poopsy
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2004
- Messages
- 202
I think the guidelines we should all follow is that if a trade presents itself you can either: save pre and post trade if you think it is something that you want to do and then allow the rest of us to discuss and possibly we can all learn something or if you're totally unsure about what to do then present the possibilities and we'll work together. Execution is ultimately the player's prerogative and to be honest it wouldn't have occurred to me to avoid trading with russia because they were in the lead, but that's definitely something I'm gonna remember to consider for every future trade in any game.
In terms of future city planning, my next priority is growing around the eastern river for more commerce. That and finding Iron. I haven't looked at the save yet so I don't know if we can see any, but I'm gonna do that as soon as I'm done this message.
In terms of future city planning, my next priority is growing around the eastern river for more commerce. That and finding Iron. I haven't looked at the save yet so I don't know if we can see any, but I'm gonna do that as soon as I'm done this message.
peacemonger
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2004
- Messages
- 71
On the timing of the trade -- what's the magic in "3 more turns"? I get the general logic of waiting, but how do you decide how long to wait? Was 3 based on the fact that we saw German border 3 turns later and at that point could consider another viable partner?
Two things happen:
There is another nation to trade with and knowledge already known grows cheaper, or they have new knowledge and lack something already known to us.
It is a judgement call, to be sure. Generally speaking, at this stage of the game more can be gained by waiting, especially if contact between nations is limited. Later in the game, when there is more inter-tribal contact, the equation changes.
There is another nation to trade with and knowledge already known grows cheaper, or they have new knowledge and lack something already known to us.
It is a judgement call, to be sure. Generally speaking, at this stage of the game more can be gained by waiting, especially if contact between nations is limited. Later in the game, when there is more inter-tribal contact, the equation changes.
