Training game emphasizing trading - Emperor

[peacemonger]

So it is important to spot Monopoly techs. The best situation is when 2 civs have monopoly techs. Buying 1 and then using that in trade to obtain the second tech and reselling the second tech to the civ we bought the first tech from gives us a lot. This is called a 2fer1. 2 techs for the price of 1. Actually it is far better than the price of 1, as we can get some money back for the tech we bought first.

So this is the situation we are in. The risk, as Bede pointed out, is that Japan and/or Russia are researching the techs they are respectively missing and thus value them somewhat low. We could buy pottery outright for 93g. Or we could try something like this:

masonry + 67g to Japan for Wheel

wheel + ?? to Russia for pottery and Warrior Code (I'd guess the ?? is less than the 44g they want when coupled with alphabet)

warrior code to Japan for ?? (probably get back at least a good chunk of our coin and perhaps either BW or CB)

 

[Jurimax]

I would only buy Pottery for now, as it really is the only tech we really need. Since we already mapped that much land, we could very well meet another AI soon, thus more trade options.

Greetz Jurimax

 

[TimBentley]

On the subject of discounts to the AI on researching:

I seem to remember that it applies in 1.29 and PTW but that the research discount no longer applies in C3C, though the production and Trade Rate factors do.

I believe the human's research cost is changed according to the difficulty in all versions (other than unpatched Civ3).

 

[oopsy poopsy]

If you have something to say tradewise speak up, 'cause I'm gonna play soon and I can't see passing up an opportunity to broker this trade. We aren't bankrupting ourselves to do it and so many things could make it impossible to do later on. There are GHs they could meet new contacts, they could be researching the techs themselves, I guess that last one is in favor of not doing the trades but I don't know. I think trying to wait for a perfect opportunity is gonna cost us in the long run. Then again I don't really know what I'm talking about, which is why I'm here so let me know what you think.

 

[Bede]

All you gotta do to satisfy the judges is get all the tech and all the money, but get the money first!

 

[barron of ideas]

Lurker would like to remind players that with 3 cities they need 4.5 workers (1.5 per city), more to speed settlers to new locations. There has been discussion of a worker pump, it should be set up fairly soon to take advantage of the great terrain and opportunities for commerce. The faster the workers road, and more workers road faster (recommend groups of 3 for most terrain, but see the war college article for greater detail.) You feel you need everything, but what can wait should wait, workers and settlers can't wait.

Trading is nice, and there is a good amount of detail and clarification here, but keep an eye on what is important, early profitable growth. And watch out for demands if your military doesn't keep pace with your size. It isn't all good news to have other cultures on your island. Are you prepared for a warrior or archer rush from one of your trading partners? Is your millitary weak or strong compared to theirs? It could be important. Get an advance ready to trade and find it demanded of you for no recompense, or fight. It happens, They want it, you got it, give it to them or fight. It would be nice to be able to survive that fight and not lose the expansion war to other cultures.

You have a lot of balls in the air to juggle, don't just keep an eye on the trading ball.

 

[trikos]

Current roster
Jurimax
Oopsy Poopsy: up
Plarq: on deck
Bede
Peacemonger
Trikos
dl123654

 

[trikos]

tip: Warrior code and The Wheel are the only techs known to only 1 civ at the start; thus highly tradable.
Russia doesn't start with WC though; what does that mean ?

No archers and no horseman. The probably won't come after us "soon".

 

[trikos]

Map: The island is bigger than I expected (like 1/3 of the land mass). There is probably an unmet civ on the island. We should make sure that we get the incense to the north (lux is money ). We should have been expansionists with all those GH

MM: Just a note. Consider working BG instead of the ivory in Carthage. MM looks good

Trading: Thanks for the comments. I am not sure what the best thing to do is in our situation. We must have pottery. I guess the rest depends on 1) whether we want a slow or fast research progress and 2) will we more or less money by trading now or by waiting? Perhaps I should make a comparison when we have played a bit further.

Question A: Why would you want a slow or fast research progress? I am asking because I am not sure.

Defense: Thanks for the comment barron of ideas . I would prefer a spearman-archer/horseman combo to give us MP. The only danger right now is the barbs.

Attack: I guess we need to do this sooner or later. Japan is located 'far away', so I suggest we build horses ASAP. We are not in a hurry, but reinforcement could become a problem.

Question B: I have taken a couple of reputation hits in some of my games. That can ruin a game, because you can't trade with gpt. I have figured out that you should not break treaties or declare war (and attack?) when you have troops on your opponents territory. Are there other things I/we should avoid to make my/our opponents furious?

 

[peacemonger]

Agree also with Barron's post about managing our growth -- we need to give the worker pump some thought.

wrt rep hits for declaring war when on someone else's turf: is that true even when there is no ROP that we'd be violating?

fast vs slow research pace. i think i'm sort of inclined toward fast pace right now, as it'll make techs cheaper for us to buy, although i guess it would also shorten the window on bartering opportunities. i'd say maybe fast until we can get out of despotism, then perhaps reevaluate the advantages of slowing things down?

 

[Rik Meleet]

these are the trade possibilities that I'm looking at. I haven't played a turn yet, just what's available at the end of juri's turn:

trade possibilities:
japan: wheel
us: masonry + 67g

or
japan: pottery
us: 93g

or
japan:the wheel + pottery
us: masonry + 161g

or
japan: wheel + pottery + bw + 8g
us: masonry + alphabet

or
russia: wc + pottery
us: alphabet + 44g

I think we could trade masonry and gold for wheel. Then trade wheel for warrior code and pottery and maybe some gold one way or other. The trade wc back for bronze working or ceremonial burial or both maybe. We don't have to do all of this, but it would be nice to get pottery soon, the barracks that's a prebuild for granary will be finished in 6 turns right now.
@bede: thanks for the contacts info. I did know about that just forgot the version we were playing for a second.
@rik: i'm not going to email you the save for consideration since it's identical to the save jurimax has in his post.

I need a save to check properly ...

 

[oopsy poopsy]

I'm gonna play as soon as I get home from work. around 5 EST. I'll save before any trades and then make trades and save again and post. This way if they are vetoed there isn't any spoiler info. Is this fine? If this was the idea all along and I'm just getting the idea now, then well no one ever said I was the sharpest tool in the shed.

 

[oopsy poopsy]

Alright, I got home a little early. This is the summary of the trades I made. It is the beginning of my first turn so if you guys don't like them, then it's no biggy to not use it. I sent the pre and post saves to Rik for evaluation:

trade sequence 2510BC:
1
japan:wheel
us: masonry + 67g
2
russia: warrior code + pottery
us: wheel + 59g
3
japan: 44g
us: warrior code

japan received: masonry + warrior code + 67g
russia received: wheel + 59g
us received: wheel +warrior code + pottery +44g

japan gave: wheel +44g
russia gave: warrior code + pottery
us gave: masonry + 67g + 59g

japan balance: +2tech + 23g
russia balance: +1tech + 59g
us balance: +3tech - 82g

I'm guessing that japan was researching WC and
that's why they valued WC so little.
Please let me know what you think.

We end up spending 82g for 3techs instead of 93g for pottery, but the other two civs do come out ahead as well.
Edit: I wanted to trade wheel for WC and gold from russia, so I could send WC back to japan for pottery, but Russia only had 10g and that wasn't enough.

 

[Rik Meleet]

The trade O-P did was perfect in its own right. But that isn't all that is important. Also important is the thought behind it. For instance; was the timing right ?? I think it was. Both Russia and Japan had monopoly techs the other lacks and we also had those. And Russia and Japan couldn't have met (WHY NOT ??? ), so we could sell at monopoly prices to both.

But O-P chose to not obtain all techs. We still lack Ceremonial burial. I am curious why O-P chose that path.

O-P's trade sequence 2510BC:

• 1: Japan: wheel <-> Carthago: masonry + 67g.
• 2: russia: warrior code + pottery <-> Carthago: wheel + 59g.
• 3: japan: 44g <-> Carthago: warrior code.

japan received: masonry + warrior code + 67g
russia received: wheel + 59g
Carthago received: wheel +warrior code + pottery +44g

japan gave: wheel +44g
russia gave: warrior code + pottery
Carthago gave: masonry + 67g + 59g

japan balance: +2tech + 23g
russia balance: +1tech + 59g
Carthago balance: +3tech - 82g

Rik's Alternative:

• 1: Japan: Wheel+Bronze+Pottery + 8 gold <-> Carthago: Alphabet + Masonry.
• 2: Russia: Warrior Code + Ceremonial burial + 10 gold <-> Carthago: Alphabet + The Wheel.
• 3: Japan: 27 gold <-> Carthago: Warrior Code.

Japan received: Alphabet + Masonry + Warrior Code
Russia received: Alphabet + The Wheel
Carthago received: Wheel + Warrior Code + Pottery + Ceremonial burial + 45 gold.

japan gave: wheel + bronze + pottery +35 gold.
russia gave: warrior code + ceremonial burial +10 gold
Carthago gave: Masonry + Alphabet

Japan balance: +3 tech -35 gold.
Russia balance: +2 tech -10 gold.
Carthago balance: +4 tech +45 gold.

The difference is that we have "sold" alphabet to both for a total of Ceremonial burial + 101 gold. The question is "is this smart?".

I think it is for several reasons. First is that perhaps Japan or Russia had techs that were still invisible to us (Iron Working or writing, for instance). We would have had a chance to obtain those as well then. Also; having more techs gives us a better position to trade with new civs we'll meet.
The cost of giving up on Alphabet is not so big. You first have to realise why would someone not want to trade it ? The answer is to keep a shot at researching Philosophy (1 free tech) or Literature (great library) first. In our variant that is not possible, so this is no disadvantage.
Also; withholding techs has a risk; they might research it themselves or meet someone who has alphabet and trade it with them, which means: no return on investment for us.
It has an added risk; we've given them now curraghs, so they will meet new civs quicker. To negate this downside we are now forced to build a few more curraghs, to stay ahead in sea-exploration.

But in the end; it is a matter of taste. O-P's trades were maxxed out for gold etc. I would have included Alphabet in this setup. Good trades, nonetheless!!

 

[oopsy poopsy]

Thanks for the insight Rik. I'm glad I wasn't out in left field. I made the trades I did to leave us a chance to trade alphabet to both still. If that should be done during my turns, that's fine but I didn't want to seem like a hog. I focused on taking advantage of the monopolies available and getting the tech we needed most (pottery). I also tried to leave us in a position to complete more trades. We are still able to trade alphabet for BW and or CB, i'd be more inclined towards BW for the spearmen and the chance to see if they get Iron Working. Since gold is such a premium for us CB means very little, since it leads to the oracle, temple of artemis, and monarchy and none of those are anywhere near priorities for us. Right now I'm thinking that I'll check the diplomacy every turn to see if the valuation for alphabet goes down at all. If it does, I guess that means they're researching it and we should get what we can for it. There's still a chance of gh popping or new contacts. I'd like a little more feedback before I proceed, so I'll wait a bit more. (ok so I'm chicken**** and don't want to piss you guys off ). I will start playing by 10:30 at the latest though so if you've got something to say, say it.

 

[peacemonger]

Rik's Alternative:
1: Japan: Wheel+Bronze+Pottery + 8 gold <-> Carthago: Alphabet + Masonry.
2: Russia: Warrior Code + Ceremonial burial + 10 gold <-> Carthago: Alphabet + The Wheel.
3: Japan: 27 gold <-> Carthago: Warrior Code.

Analyzed net-net after all three trades, it all makes sense. The hard part is facing that third trade and feeling like it's giving WC away. Is it clear the downside of waiting til Japan might have a little more to offer is outweighed by the risk that the current opportunity to at least get that gold is missed? Probably, and that's why I'm in this game, to start figuring this stuff out?

 

[Rik Meleet]

Analyzed net-net after all three trades, it all makes sense. The hard part is facing that third trade and feeling like it's giving WC away. Is it clear the downside of waiting til Japan might have a little more to offer is outweighed by the risk that the current opportunity to at least get that gold is missed? Probably, and that's why I'm in this game, to start figuring this stuff out?

The 3rd step is indeed the weakest step. I did it mainly to parrallel O-P's trade, but secondly because it leaves Japan on 0 gold.

 

[oopsy poopsy]

if i trade alphabet now, I can clean them both out but I don't get near real value for alphabet from the second trade. I can get full value from russia, leaving them with less then 10g, but then japan only has 59g to offer and they would give way more. I'm pretty sure Japan was researching WC since they valued it so little, so based on they techs they know does anyone know the probabilities on what japan is likely to research next? I'd like Iron working, but if it's likely it's alphabet we should probably just make the trade.

 

[Bede]

Tough call to make and not one I'm good on making, o-p.

To my way of thinking cleaning out the AI treasary limits their trade opportunities and forces them to make the choice between unit support and research. What's important is not getting the last gold piece of "value", an abstract concept at best, but getting all the gold.

So, go ahead and trade out Alphabet, then push those curraghs till their masts fall down.

And by all means check that trade screen every chance you get.

 

[oopsy poopsy]

ok so I played my turns and here they are:
2510 turn 1
trade with japan and russia
1
japan:wheel
us: masonry + 67g
2
russia: warrior code + pottery
us: wheel + 59g
3
japan: 44g
us: warrior code
curragh3 N N E
warrior N finds GH
curragh1 N N N
curragh2 S S E
IBT: russia is building Colossus
2470 turn 2
utica grows to 2
curragh3 N N N
curragh1 NE S S
curragh2 S E SE
warrior E
MM 2nd utica citizen to ivory
MM carthage 3rd to mined bg
worker NW NW N to cow
IBT nothing
2430 turn 3
leptis builds warrior
leptis starts worker
worker starts irrigating cow
warrior2 S S SE to explore the small black chunk SE of carthage
curragh3 W W W4
warrior N
curragh1 S W SW
curragh2 S E E
IBT:nothing
2390 turn 4
utica builds worker2
utica starts curragh
worker S to wheat
curragh3 S S W
curragh1 NW NW NW
curragh2 NE N NE
warrior2 SE E
warrior W
(russia gets 25g, probably from gh)
IBT:
2350 turn 5
carthage grows to 4
leptis grows to 2
luxury to 20%
warrior2 E
worker2 roads wheat
curragh3 W W N
warrior N
IBT: russia asks us to withdraw, we apologize. curragh was in their border)
barb appears on mountain SE of warrior2
2310 turn 6
warrior W
worker finishes irrigating cow
worker SE S S to forest (road to get to horses)
curragh W N (spots coast within full turns range) stops
curragh2 N E NE
warrior2 W
with new coastline curragh3 follows curragh2 instead of suicide run
curragh3 N NE E
curragh2 to new coast W W W
curragh1 N E N (discovers coast on E for new island)
IBT: barb W to SE of warrior2
2270 turn 7
worker roads forest
worker2 irrigates wheat
warrior N
curragh3 N N E
curragh N N N
curragh2 N E E
warrior2 stays
IBT:barb attacks (survive but redline, become veteran)
2230 turn 8
carthage builds granary, starts settler
leptis builds worker3 starts warrior
worker3 W to mine and road bg
warrior2 rehabs
curragh3 NE NE E
warrior W
curragh W W S (small island)
curragh2 N N NE
MMcarthage ivory to sugar (settler factory is in effect)
MMutica wheat to ivory prevent waste
IBT: nothing
2190 turn 9
warrior W
MMutica to wheat (growth in 1)
curragh3 N N NE
worker roads bg
warrior2 rehabs
curragh S S SE
curragh2 E S S
IBT:japan is building the pyramids (nice)
2150 turn 10
carthage grows to 5
utica grows to 2
leptis grows to 2
mm carthage from ivory to grassland
mm utica from forest to ivory
warrior2 E
worker3 NW to mine and road bg
warrior N
curragh3 NE E SE
curragh S E NE
curragh2 E S S

at end.
9 citizens. 4happy 3content 2unhappy
treasury 297 +16turn
luxury 20%
3 workers, 3 warriors, 3 curraghs
settler in 2, warrior in 2 curragh in 2

I checked the trade screens every turn and alphabet's value stayed the same the whole way. We can still clean them both out with alphabet if we trade with japan first for CB, BW and 59g, leaving russia with 94g to offer, they popped a gh. leptis magna is building a warrior but I don't have a really good reason so it can be switched no problem. Carthage can churn out settlers every 4 turns until the end of time so that's good.