Traits for Finland
- Thread starter Ville
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Cold/Lake? 
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Agricultural?!?
Except for some token tundra in the north, Finland is entirely in the taiga belt. Its agricultural potential is among the lowest in Europe. Animal husbandry and extensive slash-and-burn agriculture has complemented common intensive agriculture to an unusual idea into the 20th C. Just why should they be Agricultural?
Sci/Com seems reasonable to me; they're only known for Nokia anyway!
UU: Hakkapelite.
Except for some token tundra in the north, Finland is entirely in the taiga belt. Its agricultural potential is among the lowest in Europe. Animal husbandry and extensive slash-and-burn agriculture has complemented common intensive agriculture to an unusual idea into the 20th C. Just why should they be Agricultural?
Sci/Com seems reasonable to me; they're only known for Nokia anyway!
UU: Hakkapelite.
Originally posted by The Last Conformist
Agricultural?!?
Except for some token tundra in the north, Finland is entirely in the taiga belt. Its agricultural potential is among the lowest in Europe. Animal husbandry and extensive slash-and-burn agriculture has complemented common intensive agriculture to an unusual idea into the 20th C. Just why should they be Agricultural?
Sci/Com seems reasonable to me; they're only known for Nokia anyway!
UU: Hakkapelite.
There are no traits which would fit for Finland (I'm not talking about modern Finland)
Commercial is good option, I had thought about that too.
Just give all possible combos and I'll make a new poll
No, you're all wrong! They should be Com/Rel!
Commercial
+Nokia
+The Gigantic Sweden/Finland ferries
Religious
+The beautiful Helsinki Cathedral
+Nokia
Good luck with the modding.
:santa:
:santa:
:santa: :santa:
Santa was the whitest smilie there was...
Commercial
+Nokia
+The Gigantic Sweden/Finland ferries
Religious
+The beautiful Helsinki Cathedral
+Nokia
Good luck with the modding.
:santa:
:santa: :santa:
:santa:Santa was the whitest smilie there was...
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
If we're not talking about modern Finland, I rather wonder why they should be a civ at all, seeing they became independent only in 1917, and till 1809 were an integrated part of the Swedish kingdom (1809-1917 they were a Grand Principatility under Russian suzerainty).
Be that as it may. During the Swedish time, they provided a disproportionate number of soldiers for the army, esp the cavalry, so I guess a case could be made for Militaristic if we look at these centuries.
Be that as it may. During the Swedish time, they provided a disproportionate number of soldiers for the army, esp the cavalry, so I guess a case could be made for Militaristic if we look at these centuries.
Definitely Scientific and Agricultural. It's not even debatable (the rest wont simply fit).
Why?
- Finland is not even slightly industrous/commercial/religious/militaristic/expandrous compared to certain other nations (eg. Germany for militaristic, India for religious, Vikings for expandrous)
- Agriculture has been the main source of livelihood for Finnish people for the better part of its history, and it still is a very significiant trade.
- Finland leads scientific development in many branches (eg. electronics, biotechnology) and certain sub-branches (eg. space research, armaments).
And UU should be Jääkäri - infantry with increased defence rating and no resource requirements.
Why?
- Finland is not even slightly industrous/commercial/religious/militaristic/expandrous compared to certain other nations (eg. Germany for militaristic, India for religious, Vikings for expandrous)
- Agriculture has been the main source of livelihood for Finnish people for the better part of its history, and it still is a very significiant trade.
- Finland leads scientific development in many branches (eg. electronics, biotechnology) and certain sub-branches (eg. space research, armaments).
And UU should be Jääkäri - infantry with increased defence rating and no resource requirements.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
I'd be interested to hear a Finn explain why Finland should be Agricultural.
Yoda Power
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I think it should be commercial. After all isn´t Nokia=Commercial?
You can hardly set the attributes of an entire nation based on one company... It would be like measuring USA by just McDonald's or Coca Cola Company.
I have a little trouble imagining Finland as a very commercial nation in Civ terms. The way I see it, the commercial attribute represents a rather extreme economical liberialism; the way USA and now for example Estonia have chosen. The Nordic countries chose a different approach.
True it may be, but with the same logic the existence of America and India is highly questionable as well. But, the duration of a nations independence isn't always (hardly ever actually) the duration of the culture. Finland has been independent only since 1917 as you pointed out, but that doesn't mean that the Finnish civilization hadn't been here longer.
Drift
It's a boy!
Agricultural is debatable. Finnish society has been very agrarian throughout its history, but in game terms it doesn't feel right, since it means faster growth and being able to grow more food than others. That's not the kind of "agricultural" to associate with Finland.
Scientific would in my opinion focus too much on the modern Finland. Current Finland would probably be Sci, but so would be majority of other modern nations.
Religious won't do. Finns were as religious as the next nation in the past, but there has been nothing exceptional about it. Majority of the current religiousness in Finland is best described as "belief out of habit".
Seafaring. No. Icebreakers and ferries are no basis for a trait.
Militaristic. No. Finland has been a part of many wars but mostly as a part of Sweden (they would be militaristic if put into civ3)
Expansionist. No.
Commercial. Not really. Just normal trade common to every nation.
Industrious in my opinion fits Finland. Protestant work ethics have a strong foundation here and being a hard worker is valued highly. To have "Sisu" (guts, endurance and willpower) is an essential characterization of an ideal Finn and the common belief is that the current wealth we enjoy is because of the hard work and endurance of past generations.
So we have Industrial and a bunch of bad options. Out of those options, I would pick agricultural. The agrarian society here has been so strong that in a better climate, there would be no discussion whether Finland should be agricultural or not.
Scientific would in my opinion focus too much on the modern Finland. Current Finland would probably be Sci, but so would be majority of other modern nations.
Religious won't do. Finns were as religious as the next nation in the past, but there has been nothing exceptional about it. Majority of the current religiousness in Finland is best described as "belief out of habit".
Seafaring. No. Icebreakers and ferries are no basis for a trait.
Militaristic. No. Finland has been a part of many wars but mostly as a part of Sweden (they would be militaristic if put into civ3)
Expansionist. No.
Commercial. Not really. Just normal trade common to every nation.
Industrious in my opinion fits Finland. Protestant work ethics have a strong foundation here and being a hard worker is valued highly. To have "Sisu" (guts, endurance and willpower) is an essential characterization of an ideal Finn and the common belief is that the current wealth we enjoy is because of the hard work and endurance of past generations.
So we have Industrial and a bunch of bad options. Out of those options, I would pick agricultural. The agrarian society here has been so strong that in a better climate, there would be no discussion whether Finland should be agricultural or not.
I chose agricultural for the same reasons as you (I think the not-so-rich terrain will balance out the larger growth potential if played on a real map), but I would disqualify industrous for the very same reasons you disqualified scientific: it would focus too much on modern Finland. Of course, they both do, but even today's Finland is not very industrial nation compared to eg. Germany. And you have to remember that the industrialization of Finland really kicked off only after the Second World War - but we had scientific innovations well before that (the Molotov cocktail for one
).
OmniMower
Codename Synrise
I have to agree with Drift on this one.
To give Finland the scientific-trait or/and commercial just bcoz of Nokia isnt right.
This made me think wich traits would fit Sweden best, but that is a completly diff diskusion....
To give Finland the scientific-trait or/and commercial just bcoz of Nokia isnt right.
This made me think wich traits would fit Sweden best, but that is a completly diff diskusion
....Elsilhe
Hakkaa päälle!
I'll list my own opinions about the traits too. I'm overviewing Finland culturally, so in this I've taken account the whole history, not just the time of independence.
What comes to the matter of Finland being Militaristic, it has two sides. First side is that we were under Swedish rule for a long time, and were involved in many wars with them. The effect of this was (naturally!) that Swedish crown drafted Finnish farmers, mainly in the cavalry service - the Finnish Hakkapelitas were known as one of the bravest part of the cavalry. However, they used the Finns so much that they literally ran out! So compared to population of Svealand, they used relatively much, much more Finnish troops in service. So this description supports the Militaristic trait.
And the other side? Well, the Finnish were not interested in war (of course, if you go to the 17th century and ask German farmer his opinion about the war, he will slash you in the head with his pitchfork!), at least not in offensive way. Finland was (and still is) sparsely populated, and so there was enough room and food for everyone.
But then, again, they resisted the crusades made by the English, and the landing of the Swedes. The Finns weren't organized as well as their conquerors, and lacked the government of any form - in fact they were just like any other native community, who are willing to defend what is rightfully theirs.
So my conclusion is that I'll bend slightly towards Militaristic trait, after I've taken account the Swedish rule and how they used us, the bloody civil war which ended the Russian rule and the World War II, where we were fighting, for the first time in our independent history, offensively. And today, as has been noted, we have very good knownledge of military technology suited for protecting our country.
OK, more ideas of traits. Agricultural? No. While it may seem the only one that fits, it cannot be. Almost all of the European countries have better food production potential and -capacity than Finland has. And the more we look back to the history, the more wildlands we will see - there was just that much of farming and hunting that the people stayed alive, and often not even that much (how else can we explain the fact that we have so little population compared to those who really have the farming capacity?)
Seafaring? No. While the present-day Finland has much of ship building industry (and a few fine cruise ships, too ), it has nothing to do with the Seafaring trait.
Industrial? Could be. I'm not going to say a single word about Nokia, as that matter has been already been discussed. I'm concentrating again to the big picture. Industrial means productivity. And we Finns have always been very productive. Because we have had to. Perhaps the most important export product were the naval supplies, mainly tar. Finland had many big customers, including England, Netherlands, France and even Spain. Unfortunately, under the Swedish rule and in the age of mercantilism and after, the Finns did not benefit from it, but it still shows that a little country can achieve great efforts.
So I'd suggest the second trait would be Industrious. However, it may also be Commercial if you want to take a different point of view. I'm so tired, it's 1 AM and I'm still here! So I think I'll leave this for now. Any counterthoughts? Hope this gives you some new vision to the topic!
Lastly, I must recommend you all to read Peter Englund's books, of which the first concentrates on 30 years was, the second in the time of warrior king Gustaf II Adolf, and the third in the battle of Poltava (there are more books, yet I haven't found them). They are filled with interesting facts about the time and habits, science, politics and war. Mostly war.
-Elsilhe
What comes to the matter of Finland being Militaristic, it has two sides. First side is that we were under Swedish rule for a long time, and were involved in many wars with them. The effect of this was (naturally!) that Swedish crown drafted Finnish farmers, mainly in the cavalry service - the Finnish Hakkapelitas were known as one of the bravest part of the cavalry. However, they used the Finns so much that they literally ran out! So compared to population of Svealand, they used relatively much, much more Finnish troops in service. So this description supports the Militaristic trait.
And the other side? Well, the Finnish were not interested in war (of course, if you go to the 17th century and ask German farmer his opinion about the war, he will slash you in the head with his pitchfork!), at least not in offensive way. Finland was (and still is) sparsely populated, and so there was enough room and food for everyone.
But then, again, they resisted the crusades made by the English, and the landing of the Swedes. The Finns weren't organized as well as their conquerors, and lacked the government of any form - in fact they were just like any other native community, who are willing to defend what is rightfully theirs.
So my conclusion is that I'll bend slightly towards Militaristic trait, after I've taken account the Swedish rule and how they used us, the bloody civil war which ended the Russian rule and the World War II, where we were fighting, for the first time in our independent history, offensively. And today, as has been noted, we have very good knownledge of military technology suited for protecting our country.
OK, more ideas of traits. Agricultural? No. While it may seem the only one that fits, it cannot be. Almost all of the European countries have better food production potential and -capacity than Finland has. And the more we look back to the history, the more wildlands we will see - there was just that much of farming and hunting that the people stayed alive, and often not even that much (how else can we explain the fact that we have so little population compared to those who really have the farming capacity?)
Seafaring? No. While the present-day Finland has much of ship building industry (and a few fine cruise ships, too
), it has nothing to do with the Seafaring trait.Industrial? Could be. I'm not going to say a single word about Nokia, as that matter has been already been discussed. I'm concentrating again to the big picture. Industrial means productivity. And we Finns have always been very productive. Because we have had to. Perhaps the most important export product were the naval supplies, mainly tar. Finland had many big customers, including England, Netherlands, France and even Spain. Unfortunately, under the Swedish rule and in the age of mercantilism and after, the Finns did not benefit from it, but it still shows that a little country can achieve great efforts.
So I'd suggest the second trait would be Industrious. However, it may also be Commercial if you want to take a different point of view. I'm so tired, it's 1 AM and I'm still here! So I think I'll leave this for now. Any counterthoughts? Hope this gives you some new vision to the topic!
Lastly, I must recommend you all to read Peter Englund's books, of which the first concentrates on 30 years was, the second in the time of warrior king Gustaf II Adolf, and the third in the battle of Poltava (there are more books, yet I haven't found them). They are filled with interesting facts about the time and habits, science, politics and war. Mostly war.
-Elsilhe
Elsilhe and Drift has some nice analyses. 
To continue the Agricultural debate, I'd say, to put it bluntly, that the Finnish weren't farmers because they were agricultural, they were farmers because they were too poor to be anything else.
To continue the Agricultural debate, I'd say, to put it bluntly, that the Finnish weren't farmers because they were agricultural, they were farmers because they were too poor to be anything else.
aaminion00
Stoned
I say militaristic scientific. Scientific for the above mentioned and militaristic, not because you're a war-like people, but ones who seem to excel at it again and again whenever you get into one.
aaglo
Furioso!
I can say what finland is not:
- Expansionistic
- Industrious
- Agricultural
- Scientific
The remaining choises:
- Seafaring: Finland is one of the major cruiser builders in the world (but the trait benefit +1 move in sea does not represent this much). Also one of the major tar (needed for wooden ships) producers during 1600-1800
- Commercial: Nokia (and earlier furs & tar), Santa claus
- Religious: well, every culture in history are somehow religious, and finns aren't an exception. We have our own heathen believes
- Militaristic: Like Aaminion00 said, every time we've been dragged to a war, we tend to do quite well. But we aren't very agressive.
Conclusion:
Militaristic and Commercial
- Expansionistic
- Industrious
- Agricultural
- Scientific
The remaining choises:
- Seafaring: Finland is one of the major cruiser builders in the world (but the trait benefit +1 move in sea does not represent this much). Also one of the major tar (needed for wooden ships) producers during 1600-1800
- Commercial: Nokia (and earlier furs & tar), Santa claus
- Religious: well, every culture in history are somehow religious, and finns aren't an exception. We have our own heathen believes
- Militaristic: Like Aaminion00 said, every time we've been dragged to a war, we tend to do quite well. But we aren't very agressive.
Conclusion:
Militaristic and Commercial
