Transports can attack? How on Earth does this make sense?

[JazzMan]

Right off the bat here, let me admit I'm still really new to BtS and Civ IV in general. My friend and I have been playing MP for a couple weeks now whenever our real lives allow us the time, and finally, we had an opportunity to take on a computer opponent in the modern age who matched our technology, if not quite our manufacturing output. Not only that, but the war was to be waged amphibiously -- both of us built up massive fleets, transports, missile cruisers, carriers, stealth destroyers, etc...

We invade. Both of us fight hard and experience some early losses, which you would expect when fighting an opponent on equal tech footing. We end our first turn of the invasion, and then, the reports roll in...

"Your Carrier was destroyed by an American Transport."
"Your Stealth Destroyer was destroyed by an American Transport."
"Your Missile Cruiser was destroyed by an American Transport."
And on and on.

In the first wave of this new "Transport of Death Assault" my friend lost 6 of his own ships (2 of which were Attack Subs, and 1 of which was a Missile Cruiser) while managing to kill 3 American Transports. I lost 3 ships (2 Carriers and a Stealth Destroyer) and managed to kill exactly zero American Transports.

Look, I understand that there will be oddities in the system where a Longbowman might occassionally kill a Tank and things like that. But the "Transport of Death Assault" is completely ridiculous. At 16 strength and relatively cheap to produce, the transport turns in to quite a bargain. Why waste time on 4 cruise missiles and a Missile Cruiser when you can pump out 5 transports in the same amount of time?

I don't think Transports, or for that matter Galleons or any of the strictly "transportive" naval units should be able to attack other naval units. I think this needs to be changed in a patch. It's utterly unrealistic and completely frustrating for the computer to mass produce transports and throw them at you like some kind of naval version of cannon fodder. If it hadn't happened to me personally I wouldn't even have believed it was possible.

But I'm saying it -- apparently, with the ability to attack, the transport is unbalanced.

 

[axident]

Right off the bat here, let me admit I'm still really new to BtS and Civ IV in general. My friend and I have been playing MP for a couple weeks now whenever our real lives allow us the time, and finally, we had an opportunity to take on a computer opponent in the modern age who matched our technology, if not quite our manufacturing output. Not only that, but the war was to be waged amphibiously -- both of us built up massive fleets, transports, missile cruisers, carriers, stealth destroyers, etc...

We invade. Both of us fight hard and experience some early losses, which you would expect when fighting an opponent on equal tech footing. We end our first turn of the invasion, and then, the reports roll in...

"Your Carrier was destroyed by an American Transport."
"Your Stealth Destroyer was destroyed by an American Transport."
"Your Missile Cruiser was destroyed by an American Transport."
And on and on.

In the first wave of this new "Transport of Death Assault" my friend lost 6 of his own ships (2 of which were Attack Subs, and 1 of which was a Missile Cruiser) while managing to kill 3 American Transports. I lost 3 ships (2 Carriers and a Stealth Destroyer) and managed to kill exactly zero American Transports.

Look, I understand that there will be oddities in the system where a Longbowman might occassionally kill a Tank and things like that. But the "Transport of Death Assault" is completely ridiculous. At 16 strength and relatively cheap to produce, the transport turns in to quite a bargain. Why waste time on 4 cruise missiles and a Missile Cruiser when you can pump out 5 transports in the same amount of time?

I don't think Transports, or for that matter Galleons or any of the strictly "transportive" naval units should be able to attack other naval units. I think this needs to be changed in a patch. It's utterly unrealistic and completely frustrating for the computer to mass produce transports and throw them at you like some kind of naval version of cannon fodder. If it hadn't happened to me personally I wouldn't even have believed it was possible.

But I'm saying it -- apparently, with the ability to attack, the transport is unbalanced.

Maybe they have a 5-inch gun and some depth charges? In my current game I was the only one with oil-based ships and needed to build a ship in 1 turn--no more--for an emergency attack on an enemy ship I spotted. I did. I attacked. The enemy carrack died. I gained GG xp for it. My transport wasn't even scratched. Go transport assaults!

Anyway it's not that effective to swarm modern ships with transports since so many transports will die; the AI might not have had anything better (or left) to throw at you.

 

[DrewTate]

You should not be attacking America anyway you douche

Moderator Action: Warned for trolling
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Slaughter]

Maybe their boarded your ships?

 

[JazzMan]

Anyway it's not that effective to swarm modern ships with transports since so many transports will die; the AI might not have had anything better (or left) to throw at you.

I'll grant you that. And like I said, I understand statistical oddities will occur; every now and then a unit with 16 strength will kill a unit with 40 strength. But they are Transports. Their function in the game is to Transport land units across the sea. They shouldn't be able to attack other naval units. It makes no sense to me at all. Of course, use the 16 strength to defend against attacks. But for a Transport to be able to attack...no sense. No sense at all.

 

[axident]

I'll grant you that. And like I said, I understand statistical oddities will occur; every now and then a unit with 16 strength will kill a unit with 40 strength. But they are Transports. Their function in the game is to Transport land units across the sea. They shouldn't be able to attack other naval units. It makes no sense to me at all. Of course, use the 16 strength to defend against attacks. But for a Transport to be able to attack...no sense. No sense at all.

Shipman: We've sighted the invaders ahead of us, captain! What should we do? We are unarmed transports and our protective screen of escorts is destroyed. Should we run?

Captain: Ramming speed! FULL SPEED AHEAD!!

 

[Underdawg]

You should not be attacking America anyway you douche

Talk about spam.

Anyways, to the OP:

Anyways, I always thought it was weird in any case transports could down ships like damaged destroyers and I would support making transports not being able to attack.

 

[Evie]

Transports, I can see where you are coming from.

Galleons, however, were historically perfectly combat-capable ships. The idea that they shouldn't be able to attack is a joke.

 

[Underdawg]

Transports, I can see where you are coming from.

Galleons, however, were historically perfectly combat-capable ships. The idea that they shouldn't be able to attack is a joke.

I was about to touch on that.

 

[Spearthrower]

They shouldn't be able to attack other naval units. It makes no sense to me at all. Of course, use the 16 strength to defend against attacks. But for a Transport to be able to attack...no sense. No sense at all.

Why on earth not?

Transports aren't forbidden to carry weapons by some Byzantine law you know?

As far as I am aware, every single transport ever made has carried weapons - obviously not as much as a destroyer but plenty to do some damage..... even landing ships carry mounted RPG/Automatics.

Sorry, toning them down perhaps I'd go with, but if you want it to be realistic then you can't take away their guns.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Transports, I can see where you are coming from.

Galleons, however, were historically perfectly combat-capable ships. The idea that they shouldn't be able to attack is a joke.

In that case you come across a dilemma. I think it's usually the case that if unit A can be upgraded to unit B then unit B must not be inferior to unit A in any way. If you want galleons to upgrade to transports you can't have your cake and eat it too. Either both get to attack or neither do.

I see nothing wrong with transports being able to attack. It's not as if they're ever going to intimidate a proper navy.

 

[Devil Inside]

im assuming that your fleet was near the american coast...in that case you may have been bombed to smithereens before the transports attacked, by planes, missiles, etc.

transport is good at 16 strength, i would say give them a -50% when on offense or something like that.

for this kind of scenario, i always have at least 2 carriers fully loaded with intercepting fighters....per stack of invasion boats. ALWAYS invade at more than one point, specifically to prevent what happened to you. 2 stacks means 2 targets, which means less heat on each!

 

[JazzMan]

Why on earth not?

Transports aren't forbidden to carry weapons by some Byzantine law you know?

As far as I am aware, every single transport ever made has carried weapons - obviously not as much as a destroyer but plenty to do some damage..... even landing ships carry mounted RPG/Automatics.

Sorry, toning them down perhaps I'd go with, but if you want it to be realistic then you can't take away their guns.

Of course Transports should carry weapons, and of course they should be at least moderately difficult to kill in the modern age. I understand you should need to protect them with other ships, etc, even. But are you really trying to tell me that a Transport should be an offensive unit? That this is a unit that you would ever build in ridiculous numbers to try to overwhelm an enemy? I'm not saying that you take away their guns; of course they should be able to defend themselves. But to use offensively? Seems to me like a misuse of the unit and an exploit that bears no semblance to reality whatsoever.

If you want a unit that's cheap and carries the weapons (RPG's, etc.) you're talking about, create a torpedo boat or something. But a Transport, to me, should serve one purpose, and that is to transport units over the sea. If you want a Transport with guns, why not do what Firaxis did in BtS by making a distinction between the Trireme and the Galley? IIRC, this is a new BtS thing and quite an appropriate addition to Bronze Age naval combat. Create a RPG Transport, or the previously mentioned Torpedo Boat, or something. But the way it is now...no sense. No sense at all.

 

[Bad Brett]

I don't know, I don't spot THAT many guns. Maybe if you loaded it with bazooka guys or something...

 

[mortichro]

LST's have guns.. machine guns.. and no crew is not equip without rifles.. usually to fend off pirates.

 

[Spearthrower]

Bad Brett - that is a) a landing ship not a transport and b) not a military ship.

Jazzman, let me get this clear... you are arguing for realism and want something that has guns on it to not be able to attack? Just how is that realistic? Do the bullets only work in defense? Sorry, but that's the thing that makes no sense to me.

Now if you instead suggested making it -50% strength when attacking like Devil Inside suggested, then that would be a reasonable step towards balancing game play and reality.

 

[Bad Brett]

Bad Brett - that is a) a landing ship not a transport and b) not a military ship.

Spearthrower - the ship a) was used during the WWII (they may have removed some kind of a gun, but you get my picture) and b) looks exactly like the so-called "transport ships" in Civ IV (even though you're right that it actually is a landing ship).

 

[azaris]

LST-1 as used in WWII:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_landing_ship

* Armament:

1 x 3 in (76 mm) gun
6 x 40 mm gun
6 x 20 mm gun
2 x .50 cal (12.7 mm) machine guns
4 x .30 cal (7.62 mm) machine guns

 

[MrCynical]

I'll grant you that. And like I said, I understand statistical oddities will occur; every now and then a unit with 16 strength will kill a unit with 40 strength. But they are Transports. Their function in the game is to Transport land units across the sea. They shouldn't be able to attack other naval units. It makes no sense to me at all. Of course, use the 16 strength to defend against attacks. But for a Transport to be able to attack...no sense. No sense at all.

Transports killing other ships by attacking isn't that unusual. They haven't a hope of killing an undamaged destroyer or stronger ship (they might occasionally beat a carrier), but against extremely damaged ships they can be useful to mop them up before they get away and repair. If someone hits your stack with guided missles, aircraft, ships that do collateral damage, subs, nukes etc. you frequently end up with ships damaged enough for transports to be able to finish them off.

 

[Spearthrower]

Spearthrower - the ship a) was used during the WWII (they may have removed some kind of a gun, but you get my picture) and b) looks exactly like the so-called "transport ships" in Civ IV (even though you're right that it actually is a landing ship).

But with all the guns stripped off and now used as a civilian ferry.

Azaris has the facts I failed to go look up!