Tricky Byzantine questions...

[andycapp]

Magnus, I must admit my observation is hardly original, many writers and historians have made similar observations about the placement of Constantine's capital, not least one of my favorite writers of Byzantine history, John Julius Norwich.

He wrote "Byzantium" which is a 3 part history of....er.... Byzantium [punch] . I thoroughly recommend it as a good read rather than an academic text.

One of my favourite Byzantine Emperor's is Alexius Comnenus, although not always succesful on the field of battle he was able to rebuild Byzantine strength after the steady decline following Manzikert and his handling of the unruly Crusader armies was truly a juggling act.

Admittedly, Alexius got very good historical 'press' due to the writings of his daughter Anna Comnena but that does not detract from Alexius's achievements in difficult circumstances.

Perhaps if there had been more emperors of a similar mould following Alexius the Byzantine Empire's demise would have been substantially delayed - another 'what if'.

 

[andycapp]

Since no else has asked any more questions, I'll take the liberty of doing so.

Some questions about the 'Battle of Manzikert'.

1. Give the date of the battle including: day of the week, month and year?

2. Name of the Byzantine Emperor and his Turkish opponent?

3. Name the commanders (at the battle) of the right and left flanks of the Byzantine Army?

4. Who was the treachorous commander of the Byzantine rear and what part did he play in the defeat?

5. What did the Turkish Sultan demand Romanus do when he was first brought before him after the battle (the next day)?

 

[Paiktis22]

Fascinating thread

A small note: the Byzantines, which used the greek language, refered to themselves as Romioi, not Romeoi (=Romans in greek). The difference may seem minor but is significant.

There are two schools of historians when it comes to where the word Romioi came from.

One claims, as Vrylakas already pointed out, that it derives from the word "Romans".

Another school of historians claims that it derives from the greek province of Roumeli.

In any case Romioi was used to describe greek christians as opposed to greek pagans in the early days of Byzantium. The latter were simply called, amazingly enough, "Hellenes" (=greeks).

With the expansion of christianity the vast majority of the citizens of Byzantium were called, of course, Romioi including people who were not greeks but were christanized later (such as the slavs).

BTW, that's the first time I hear that the word Byzantium was used at that era. I think it was a name the historians picked up much much later as an easy way to tell apart the Western Roman Empire from the Eastern Roman Empire.

 

[Magnus]

VERY interesting essay on the Vlach Connection to the Eastern Roman Empire...

http://www.friesian.com/decdenc2.htm

 

[Paiktis22]

Thanks for the link Magnus. Yes the "Vlahoi" also were a vibrant picture of Byzantium. They still survive in today's Greece (mainly in northern Greek Macedonia IIRC - as the link says) but they are pretty much "hellenised" now.


andycapp,

2. Emperor Constantine Palaiologos. Suleyman the Magnificent.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by andycapp
1. Give the date of the battle including: day of the week, month and year?

1054.

 

[andycapp]

Originally posted by Paiktis22

andycapp,

2. Emperor Constantine Palaiologos. Suleyman the Magnificent.

Paiktis22, no and no. The names you give belong to a dfferent era of Byzantine history, not the battle of Manzikert.

 

[andycapp]

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
1054.

No. A clue, it was a later date.

 

[CentralAzN]

Stavro thats incorrect about the Turkish flag. the crescent is mentioned in the Quran and might have been being used by the Arabs already.

Another reason for the crescent stated by historians is that at the Battle of Kosovo rivers ran red with blood and the crescent was reflecting off of it. (hence the red color in the turkish flag)

nice quiz however the Byzantines were very interesting.

 

[MustardStew]

Battle of Manzikert:

1. March, 1071?

2. Emporer Romanus Diogenes, Sultan Alp Arslan

3. Left - Byrennias, right - Alyattes

4. Andronicus Ducas? spread rumors of Emperor's defeat, fled the field...

5. Kiss the ground so he could stand on his neck - silly symbolism...

 

[andycapp]

Originally posted by MustardStew
Battle of Manzikert:

1. March, 1071?

I'll give you this because 1071 is correct although "March" is not, it was August and probably Friday 26th.

2. Emporer Romanus Diogenes, Sultan Alp Arslan

Correct.

3. Left - Byrennias, right - Alyattes

Correct.

4. Andronicus Ducas? spread rumors of Emperor's defeat, fled the field...

Correct. :gooodjob:

5. Kiss the ground so he could stand on his neck - silly symbolism...

Also correct.

 

[andycapp]

Mustardstew, care to post some questions for us to answer?

 

[MustardStew]

hmmm...

Would have to think hard for some questions...

Oh, just to concur, John Julius Norwich is probably my favorite historical author - I read his Byzantium (the short version - haven't gotten the long yet), Venice.... which to me is far closer to Byzantine heritage than Italian...

Anyway, questions that are worthy of the board.....

1. Why was the Fourth Crusade sent to Conatantinople instead of Palestine? What famous sculptures were taken from Constantinople in this Crusade?

2. Who became 1st "Latin Emperor"?

3. Which Emperor became vassal to an Ottoman Sultan? Who was that Sultan?

4. What was the Iconoclasm? When did it takes place?

5. Who was the great Hungarian that many in Constantinople hoped would save Constantinople from the Ottomans?

6. What "omens" were seen in Constantinople in May 1453?

Hopefully these provide some challenge, without being impossible (first quiz-type post for me)....

Enjoy - Byzantium is fascinating!!

 

[tetley]

The strategic importance of Constantinople is huge. Just look at it on a map--you control Constantinople, you control the Black Sea. Most all trade/supply routes between Europe and Asia go through Constantinople. Furthermore, scarcely half a mile separate the shores of the Bosporus Straits, which Constantinople controls, and the Straits are difficult to navigate. You can't just "make a run for it" if you want to sneak a ship to the Mediterranean from the Black Sea, or vice-versa.

In modern times, the significance of Istanbul is even bigger, because now you've got oil in the picture. If Russia wants to export oil to the rest of the world, they have to go through either the Baltic, or Istanbul.

I dare say that if a conventional World War 3 developed (i.e. Warsaw Pact vs. NATO), Istanbul would be the single most important city of the war. More important than Berlin.

 

[andycapp]

Originally posted by MustardStew

1. Why was the Fourth Crusade sent to Conatantinople instead of Palestine? What famous sculptures were taken from Constantinople in this Crusade?

Initially because Enrico Dandolo, the Venetian Doge, offered to provide transport to the Crusaders if they would assist him in the retaking of the Venetian city of Zara, which they did. It was then that Alexius (later, and briefly Emperor Alexius IV),son of the deposed Emperor Isaac put the proposal to the Crusaders for assistance in overthrowing his usurping uncle, Emperor Alexius III and in return would reward them and assist with the crusade.

The Crusaders and Venetians accepted the proposal and sailed to Constantinople, which they took and had (young) Alexius crowned as the new Emperor Alexius IV. Alas, the Crusaders and Venetians demanded payment of monies promised, which Alexius IV was unable to pay as he was in turn deposed by another Alexius (Ducas) who crowned himself Emperor Alexius V. As a result the Crusaders and Venetians decided to take Constantinople for themselves and install their own Emperor.

Amongst much other plunder, the Venetians took the four great bronze horses from the Hippodrome back to Venice where they put them above the main door of St Marks.

2. Who became 1st "Latin Emperor"?

Count Baldwin of Flanders and Hainault

3. Which Emperor became vassal to an Ottoman Sultan? Who was that Sultan?

John V.

Murad.

4. What was the Iconoclasm? When did it takes place?

In a literal sense means 'the smashing of icons'. A split developed within the church between those that favoured the practice of depicting religious figures and scenes through sculpture and painting (iconodules) and those that opposed such representations (iconoclasts). This struggle took place on and off over hundreds of years. It began in 726 when the Emperor Leo III smashed the great golden icon of Christ in the Chalke in Constantinople and developed into civil unrest right across the Empire.

5. Who was the great Hungarian that many in Constantinople hoped would save Constantinople from the Ottomans?

Louis The Great of Hungary

6. What "omens" were seen in Constantinople in May 1453?

A lunar eclipse and the holiest icon of the city the Virgin Mary slipped from it's platform during a parade through the city which was soon followed by an unnatually heavy thunderstorm and fog. That night St Sophia was bathed in an eerie red glow.

Good questions Mustardstew!

I agree with you Byzantine history is fascinating.

 

[MustardStew]

Hey thanks - good job with answers!!

Maybe its because I was never exposed to Byzantium / Eastern Mediterranean history while I was in school (all Dark Ages - shows what we know) ....
but the Byzantines, Ottomans, et. al and even the Italian city-states just fascinate me - history in general does, but these relatively unexplored cultures (for me) offer such a different perspective to the Middle Ages, in contrast to "the fall of Rome, rise of fuedalism, Renaissance" approach I was taught...

Anyway, enough talking to hear myself talk (read)...
enjoying this thread immensely

 

[andycapp]

1. What was the name of the battle at which Constantine effectively established control of the empire?

2. At this battle Constantine had a vision what was it? And what was the literal 'message' given to him?

3. Who could reasonably be described as the 'unluckiest' Byzantine Emperor? Hint, he won a long and hard fought campaign against a traditional foe (and recovered the 'True Cross') only to have a large part of the Empire over run by a new menace.

4. At what decisive battle were the Byzantines defeated by this new menace? And what natural event contributed to the Byzantine defeat during the battle?

5. What important provinces did the Byzantines lose as a result of this defeat?

PS. I will be on holidays for four days, at the beach , and so will not be able to post answers until I get back.

Andy.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

2. At this battle Constantine had a vision what was it? And what was the literal 'message' given to him?

A vision of the Christian cross in the sky. To go forth and conquer?

3. Who could reasonably be described as the 'unluckiest' Byzantine Emperor? Hint, he won a long and hard fought campaign against a traditional foe (and recovered the 'True Cross') only to have a large part of the Empire over run by a new menace.

Heraclius?

5. What important provinces did the Byzantines lose as a result of this defeat?

Egypt, Palestine, Syria?

 

[Paiktis22]

Some more questions based on Byzantine tradition and mythomotors:

_What are the two signs that the scholars of Byzantium predicted will happen that would lead to the recapture of Constantinople and Asia Minor from the Ottomans?

_Also where and which is the Gate that remains closed since the capture of the capital of Byzantium from the Ottomans and was said by Byzantine scholars that will be opened only by Christian hands?

_According to tradition and myth what were the last words of the last King of Byzantium right before he fell by the Ottoman scimitars in the royal chambers?

 

[andycapp]

Knight-Dragon's answer to Q2

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
A vision of the Christian cross in the sky. To go forth and conquer?

Close enough, allegedly the inscription was Hoc Vince (Conquer by This)

Knight-Dragon's answer to Q3

Heraclius?

Correct

Knight-Dragon's answer to Q5

Egypt, Palestine, Syria?

Correct

Questions 1 and 4 are still unanswered.

Paiktis22, might I suggest that people wait until all questions previously asked, are answered, before asking more themselves - just an idea to make things more workable.

In answer to your questions:

- priests in the church of the Holy Wisdom gathered up the most precious icons and miraculously disappeared as the Turks stormed into the church. It is said they will reappear when Constantinople becomes a Christian city again.

- don't know

- in fact the last Emperor Constantine fell in battle (not in the "royal chambers") after throwing of everything that might identify him as the Emperor - what the myths are surrounding his death, I'm not aware.