Trojan War

[JWong]

With the new Troy movie coming out, I thought id try my first scenario.
:drumroll: THE TROJAN WAR

Objectives
Troy: Survive! (until turns run out... havent decided on limit yet)
Sparta/Athens: Sack Troy and kill King Priam

Custom Map:
Greece and Western Turkey

Civilizations:
Trojans
Spartans
Athens

New Units:
Skirmisher
Mounted
Battering Ram
Ladder
Peltist
Spartan Hoplite
Ancient Trireme

Heros:
Aeneas
Achilles (sp?)
Hector

Other:
Settlers Removed

*Thats it so far, any comments/suggestions would be great! Does this seem like it could work?



PS: I finally figured out how to add units, but have no idea how to add the new civilizations? (Thanx for the tutorial Colonel Kraken ) I couldnt find any on hw to add civs though

 

[JWong]

Anyone know if the Trojans would have had any allies? If I could add a civ on Troy's side it would add a lot of depth seeing as the Trojans only have one city . The Trojan war was something like 2000 BC? What other civs were there back then other than Greece and Egypt?

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

Athens and Sparta did not take part in the Trojan War. It took place sometime around 1250BC... Sparta wasn't built until about 750BC, and Athens wasn't independent until after the Dorian migrations. The Greeks which did were Mycenaean, and a few Cretan ones. Modern archeological evidence suggests that Troy was only a province of the Hittite Empire with a large amount of circumstantial evidence for this to be the case.

But if you need civs, to keep in touch with the Iliad, here are some suggestions, some of which will be shot down but I give them anyway...

On the Trojan's side
Troy (obviously)
Dardania (in the Iliad they are mentioned as Trojan allies, in history they are mentioned as Hittite subjects even taking place in the Battle of Kadesh against Ramesses II the Great of Egypt)
Kikonia (in western European Turkey and far northeastern Greece)
Leleges (if possible to represent... they were nomads who dominated the centre of the Aegean Sea, after the war they migrated to Turkey)

On the Greek's side
Mycenae
Gortyna (to represent those Cretans which joined in the war)

Those who were / could be Neutral
Crete
Hittite Empire (better not let them get involved because they would probably be too powerful, they had significant cities in Miletus and Ephesus)
Illyrians (barbarians from Yugoslavia and northern Albania. They were just beginning to emerge although they could be represented by barbarians)

 

[JWong]

Thanx for the tips
I havent read the Illiad, I was basing this off of the Aeneid.
Crete is where the Trojans fled too, so they could possibly be on the side of the Trojans

 

[CaesarCardinale]

JWong,

Book Two of the Illiad, will be a great help to you. Homer lists all of the Greek cities that took part in the war and even how many men and ships they sent. While historically, Athens and Sparta were not yet significant, if you're going by the Illiad itself, they were major players along with Argos and Thebes.

Also, the Trireme had not yet been invented, you'd be better off using a regular galley.

Good luck with the scenario, its a great idea!

 

[Xen]

Athens and Sparta did not take part in the Trojan War. It took place sometime around 1250BC... Sparta wasn't built until about 750BC, and Athens wasn't independent until after the Dorian migrations. The Greeks which did were Mycenaean, and a few Cretan ones. Modern archeological evidence suggests that Troy was only a province of the Hittite Empire with a large amount of circumstantial evidence for this to be the case.

But if you need civs, to keep in touch with the Iliad, here are some suggestions, some of which will be shot down but I give them anyway...

On the Trojan's side
Troy (obviously)
Dardania (in the Iliad they are mentioned as Trojan allies, in history they are mentioned as Hittite subjects even taking place in the Battle of Kadesh against Ramesses II the Great of Egypt)
Kikonia (in western European Turkey and far northeastern Greece)
Leleges (if possible to represent... they were nomads who dominated the centre of the Aegean Sea, after the war they migrated to Turkey)

On the Greek's side
Mycenae
Gortyna (to represent those Cretans which joined in the war)

Those who were / could be Neutral
Crete
Hittite Empire (better not let them get involved because they would probably be too powerful, they had significant cities in Miletus and Ephesus)
Illyrians (barbarians from Yugoslavia and northern Albania. They were just beginning to emerge although they could be represented by barbarians)

the isnt just directed at you Mongoloid, it has alot of just general points

A)int he Illiad, BOTH Athens and Sparta participated in the war- interestinglly, it is the Athenians who are noted for thier superb troops, and militaristic life style...

B)IIRC, Knossos was still the major site on Crete- it should be the cretan palaces that are the major cities.

C)IIRC, Crete was, accroding to the illiad, unified, and did not partcicpate in the war, though the prinice (Idomenus IIRC) sent agamemnon a faboulous suit of armor

D)the Mycenaeans shoudl be split into different city states, with different UUs- for instance the Myceneans could get a prot hoplite (considerin it was in the area of the argolis, the area in which Mycenae was located, that hoplites were developed)and other like, take the Pylians would have a chariot UU (as Nestor, King of pylos, repeated wanted to fight a the main battle with atraditional chariot charge, instead of using chariots as transporation, and nopt real battle platforms)

E)perosnally, I think troy was more along the lines of a dependent ally then a vassal, or province of the Hittite empire- although egyptian records record a contingent of Trojan chaiots at Qadesh, and the Illiad records Hittite troops at Troy

a final note

I have to say, because of the drive of characters inth eIlliad, a trojan war scenario is going to be hard to make other then the politics behind...

 

[Xen]

also, heros shoudl super strong king units- so that there will only be one hero, and they will be associated with a particuler city, the exception being troy, as it had several heros

 

[Osubaker]

Homer and Virgil have slightly different takes on the Trojan war. Homer is much more on the side of the Greeks, while Virgil's story portrays the Trojans as the heroes. Personally I think the Aeneid is the better of the two. Some possible heroes for the greeks are Menelaus, Odysseus, and Agamemnon; and of course on the Trojan side dont forget Paris, the pretty boy, who felled Achilles.

 

[CaesarCardinale]

Actually, Homer (Book Two) says that Idomeneus went with the Greeks with 80 ships, so Crete was an ally of the Greeks in the war.

 

[Xen]

hmmmm, I was sure some where it mentions crete, or a cretan nation not being able to join the war, but giving agamemnon a stunning peice of armor instead

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

Seven of the 50 or so kingdoms of Crete sent ships to Troy with the Mycenaeans. The other 43 or so remained neutral.

Also IIRC, you can only have up to four civs in one alliance due to limitations placed in the editor. I could be wrong though.

 

[Osubaker]

The people of Dardania (Dardani), where led by Aeneas (hero in the Aeneid) in the Trojan war. Dardunus's son Ilus founded Llium, which later become known as Troy. Thier empire was in what is now present day Kosovo, across from Troy.

 

[billesarius]

Suggested states (leaders)
Trojans(Priam, Hector) allies: Lycians(Sarpedon), Maeonians of Lydia, Thracians(Rhesus), Amazons (Penthesileia) Phrygians, Hittites(Warpalawas) etc.
Greeks: Mycenae(Agamemnon), Sparta(Menelaus) (Helen was originally H. of Sparta, but remember that was the name of the district before the town ever existed) Athens(Menestheus), Crete/Knossos(Idomeneus), Pylos(Nestor), Ithaca (Odyseus) Myrmidons (Achilles) were the majors.

As Xen said, a very character oriented story. Would be great if you could capture some of the flavor by including a fair number of characters.

Re:Hittites, they do not appear in the Iliad but Homer mentions the Ketioi (sp?) at one point (they called themselves Kheta). Also no Warpalawas appears in the Iliad but there is a Eurypylus son of Telephus mentioned as bringing allies from the east. As Peter James notes, an acceptable rendering of Hittite names Warpalawas son of Telepinus. I think it would be cool to have Hittites in the fray but there need not be that many.

 

[JWong]

Thanx for all the replies guys
I used a lot of your tips. Heres the new list of civs (not set in stone)

Greece: War with Troy
Thracians: Neutral
Dardanians (City Names?): Allied with Troy
Troy: War with Greece
Hitites: War with Persians, neutral in Troy/Greek war
Persians: War with Hitites, also neutral in Troy/Greek war
Crete (leader?): Neutral (might make them allied with Greece)
Llyrians: Neutral

Ive tried to be as historically accurate as I can, but the most important thing is playability

Not sure what UU for the civs yet

City placement is 70% done

This is a lot more work than I thought it would be

*If anyone is interested in taking a look at it so far and offering advise or help I will post the BIQ file.

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

@Osubaker: The Dardanians in Kosovo were an Illyrian tribe. The Dardanians in the Iliad lived in Asian Turkey, opposite Gallipoli.

@Billesarius: In Civ 2 there was also a Trojan War scenario, but they made the Hittite substitute (the Phrygians) neutral because they were too strong otherwise.

@JWong: Why Persians? Although if you want to keep the Hittites occupied, you could also include the Lukka in far southern Anatolia or the Phrygians in central Anatolia. Coming up with leaders and cities for them though might prove hard.

I'll also see if I can scrounge up some cities for you.

 

[billesarius]

Agree with M. Cow that the Dardanians of the Iliad were not the same as the Kossovo group. Also tha the Lukka (Lycians in the Iliad) would be a good addition.
Why Persians indeed? No one had heard of Persians in 1200-1250 bc. The Hittites big rival at that time was the Assyrians but IMO it would be better to leave out the Hittites altogether than to include both and lose the focus of the scenario.

 

[Xen]

@ billesarius-

about heros
personally, I would include Diomedes, and the two Ajax/Aias's in the scenario as major personalities as well, though other then thatm i completelyl agree with your list, though I think a few more champions in the already hero heavy war would be cool

about Hittites
for some reason, i've always thought that Sarpedon, the "great king of an eastern land", and a procliamed son of Zeus in the Illiad was a Hittite king, prince, general somthing along those lines to aide the apperent treaty the Hittites and Troy had going

 

[JWong]

Like I said ive never read the Illiad , ive just been trying to find what info I can on the internet.
I had two different ideas about how I could make this scenario. One was to have only the greeks and troy and make troy a ring of cities to simulate thier wall with a victory point in the middle. The other, which I choice bc the map im using is so big (200*160, greece, southeastern europe, and turkey) is to include a lot of other races to give them a chance to recruit the aid of others and would add some replayability(with all the work im doing I dont want people just playing it once ). I found Kinboats walls and used them to build an outer wall around Troy. It looks GREAT, thanx Kinboat!

Now back to history:
the peloponnesian war was the first contact with the persians?
I had the persians occupying part of eastern turkey (map ends there), I guess Ill go ahead and change it to the Assyrians. What leaderhead do you think would be the best for them?
The biggest problem is there isnt one source that has all the info. Im trying to piece it all together on my own. One site has greek cities all the way up into where I put the Llyrians and Dardanians. Makes it hard to figure out who should go where. I put both the Llyrians and Dardanians in southeastern Europe. The only civ I havent placed is the Thracians. Not sure exactly where they should go. Theres a big whole in Far Northern Greece, could they go there?

 

[jonatas]

the ethiopians enter on the side of the trojans in the iliad...

 

[JWong]

Ive almost finished the new tech tree, but ive got 4 empty spots. If you could add 4 techs to the ancient era what would they be?

Any ideas on UU for the civs?