[RD] Trump on foreign policy

[Gori the Grey]

No, it's minimal because economies are fundamentally driven by what people want, and what's involved in producing what they want.

 

[Farm Boy]

What they want that they can afford. That changes everything. Economic and not.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

More debt and more inequality, with either parties.

I'm thinking English may not be your primary language and that explains why the word "faster" in my previous post was totally lost on you.

Debt has grown under both parties, but has grown FASTER under the party whose members seem most inclined to scream about growing debt...who falsely attribute debt growth to the party not their own in the face of all objective fact.

Wealth inequality growth was secured by Reagan, and slightly slowing it down has been the best that anyone has been able to manage since...but again the Republican followers of Saint Ron don't even try to slow it down, and in fact are very effective at speeding it up. So, again, it happens FASTER under Republican administrations is an objective fact.

 

[innonimatu]

I did get the faster bit, and that is the issue: you do not have a choice of a party willing to reverse the problem, to reverse inequality, to reverse the expedient of issuing public debt to make up for reducing the taxes on the rich, to reverse the consumer debt that has been replacing wages.

Debt creation in the private sector has been allowing wages to dwindle even while consumption and corporate profits rose. That is how the system has kept working even though income inequality has been increasing. Every federal program to offer "support" to people through more debt (housing agencies, education loans, etc) is a step towards more inequality, false help.
And the holders of this ever-increasing private debt are the wealthy. Their is the power of the creditor over the debtors, leading also to a concentration of political power because as we all know access to justice or a chance at winning elections are expensive things. Both parties have been encouraging this, through deregulation (Bill Clinton is at least as guilty as Reagan for this), though state programmes that encouraged relatively poor people to take out loans (instead of intervening on the economy to produce more or better-paid jobs, provide controlled cost services, etc), and more recently through the Federal Reserve to protect lenders that should have gone bankrupt and through the Justice Department in failing to punish fraud to a degree that would actually discourage it. And there's also your lawmakers always happily conspiring to protect the men who do the "work of god"... from both parties.

Debt creation in the public sector is similar: it has allowed state spending to remain high even while taxation on the wealthy kept being reduced: both parties did that. The new debt created is issued as debt instruments that function as money, and stored in interest-paying funds that will mostly be held... by the rich. Without the trillions in debt you could not have trillions in private fortunes: you could have wealthy people who owned assets, but not the "financial market" you have now, and the "investors" who play exclusively with debt instruments. All that is backed by the state, and by the two parties you've had ruling your country in turns.

I'm not american, but I'm pissed with that american way of doing things. Because it's exploitative towards a majority of the population, which I find offensive. And because it has been exported all over the world, and its negative consequences with it. Realistically, the way the world is now I can see that the fastest way to reverse this evil is for americans to reverse it in the US and set an example. People in the rest of the world suffers from some kind of inferiority complex that has led them to believe they must go with the "international system", even though this international system (made up of several things, but by far the most important is unhindered flows of financial capital across borders) only came into being in the early 1990s. Only the population of some very few major countries has the confidence to break with it, all the others fear that the sky will fan on them if they try.
The difficulty is, many people in the US, you among them, also live in fear: TINA (there is no alternative, Thatcher's catchphrase and political strategy that was taken up by "liberal" politicians worldwide), that is why Clinton was the best candidate for you, instead of Sanders who actually wanted to break with part of the exploitative system. You're caught up in a kind of Stockholm syndrome. Trump's voters ate least are further along in the path to demanding a break, fed up with that system. They didn't rally behind a candidate who can actually carry on that break in your last election (though Trump going protectionist may have very interesting consequences...) , but at least they had a willingness to demand one, they were no longer feel prisoners of TINA. The left in America has its opportunity now, but it won't seize it by following the likes of Clinton, those are firmly invested in keeping the system as it is.

 

[Kyriakos]

Sanders would have been a good president. Unless they would shoot him, of course.

 

[innonimatu]

This is one example of how the democratic party does the same as the republican: Financialization of Rents Gets Taxpayer Guarantees

 

[Agent327]

And a wall shall be built, and it shall be paid for by taxes on products imported from Mexico. Which, of course, will be paid for by US consumers. Expect a 20 % import tax on anything from avocados to flat screen TVs. Mexico exports to the US amount to 80 % of its total exports. Upon news of this idea, the peso immediately dropped in value. Rule by tweet indeed.

 

[r16]

dear Americans , what an heartbreak . The Libertal loser media immediately gave up fierce resistance -calling people liars to their face- in the very first week . Instead it seems they will try comedy , supposedly the weapon of the weak . So we have the story of BSS claiming the Mehican did not snub in anyway and they both agreed there was no point for a state visit and stuff . Yeah , the true leaders can never be slighted by refusal to see them , they tell people not to come . Certainly when it becomes clear nobody is at the door .

mehicans try talk soft , offering a deal . Well , anyone who accepts paying for the Great Wall of Orange , perhaps GWO afterwards , however deviously and indirectly , will end up crucified on a suitable remaining piece of fence or whatever on the border . BSS was a joke , he got the job because he is a joke and he feels ready to fulfil one ambition yet unfulfilled . Becoming the Don , as in Mafioso Don . A bit late , dear Americans , to lock him up and throw away the key . Your country and stuff is bound to serve , by those who sworn to serve and compelled by the ties of honour and stuff . You will not be teaching him a lesson in mid-term elections either . With so many Mehicans illegally voting for Mrs Rodham in Northern cities , posing as Gringos and Gringas , there will be corrections to make sure only proper Americans will be allowed to vote . Experience talks , man .

meaning there are ample means to provide a job to the masses BSS still needs for their votes . Accepting the GWO will only result BSS demanding 100 virgins or whatever every week ; the New American Way requires hostility so that cutely funny Fascism and stuff can be advanced bit by bit , through anger and stuff and people who fail to accept a little sacrifice . There's going to be some price Mexico will not be able to accept .

yeah , BSS also starts a new inititiative to create safe zones in Syria , directly challenging Russia's "victory" there . Yeah , do not ever advance the career of some dude you think you can blackmail with some tapes . BSS will be so great that those tapes might soon become educational / inspirational material in US Schools . Doubtful ? You don't know a thing yet ...

 

[Commodore]

But that's not true either. The service sector is growing; they don't want to work at Walmart. They wouldn't take the backbreaking agricultural jobs that illegal aliens now do at what those illegal aliens are paid.

This is complete speculation on your part, and it is completely wrong as well. The places we are talking about are places that don't have a Walmart to work and don't have any nearby agricultural jobs. And you can't tell them to move to where the work is either because they don't have the money to move. Plus, people shouldn't be forced out of their homes just because we, as a nation, are too lazy to make sure where they live is economically viable.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Ummmm...you do recognize that "we as a nation are responsible for making sure that where they live is economically viable" runs absolutely counter to every Republican ideal, yet they vote overwhelmingly Republican in those places while griping about the Democrats' "nanny state," right?

 

[Zkribbler]

TIL: 450 gallons of fake blood were used in the filming of Kill Bill 1 & 2.

 

[Old Hippy]

This is complete speculation on your part, and it is completely wrong as well. The places we are talking about are places that don't have a Walmart to work and don't have any nearby agricultural jobs. And you can't tell them to move to where the work is either because they don't have the money to move. Plus, people shouldn't be forced out of their homes just because we, as a nation, are too lazy to make sure where they live is economically viable.

do you realise that the nation exists because people were forced out of where they live because it was more economically viable to move, the coal miners moaning about losing their jobs should have gone after the gas fracking jobs several years ago, others less suitable did
it been stated that they are not qualified to do anything else earlier in the thread but that is nonsense they would all have experience with heavy machinery, electrical systems, pumps and would have been better of than most in the 'Fracking industry'
the local store holders would also have been better of going to areas that are growing like their grand papas did when they moved their to start their business
Coal mining redundancies by your argument, should/would be Europeans problem because no one would have gone their in the first place

I do this all the time when the construction industry hit a slump, I worked on the Australian mining boom as a fly in fly out worker that's over so I'm back in Melbourne for the new construction boom and already planning my next career move as I'm getting older and its getting harder by attending locale college at nights to upgrade my Qualifications, for a career change and I'm sixty years old

it amazes me how a nation of immigrants can complain that they/someone might have to move to find work

 

[Samson]

This is complete speculation on your part, and it is completely wrong as well. The places we are talking about are places that don't have a Walmart to work and don't have any nearby agricultural jobs. And you can't tell them to move to where the work is either because they don't have the money to move. Plus, people shouldn't be forced out of their homes just because we, as a nation, are too lazy to make sure where they live is economically viable.

I do not get this. I have moved multiple times for work, as did my father and his father. Historically people have been moving from the country to the city for centuries. Looking around the office I work in there is 1 person out of about 20 that grew up around here. When did this expectation that the work should follow the workers rather than the other way round come from?

I think the government has got a lot to do with it, here in the UK I blame stamp duty (you pay a tax on the price of a house to move) and the benefit system (if you live somewhere and get laid off you can get housing benefit, if you want to move you have to pay a lot before you get any help). However I think there has been a change in attitudes in people in general to be averse to moving to find work.

 

[Kyriakos]

TIL: 450 gallons of fake blood were used in the filming of Kill Bill 1 & 2.

I think you wanted to post that in a different thread; the Clinton one

 

[Agent327]

I do not get this. I have moved multiple times for work, as did my father and his father. Historically people have been moving from the country to the city for centuries. Looking around the office I work in there is 1 person out of about 20 that grew up around here. When did this expectation that the work should follow the workers rather than the other way round come from?

I think the government has got a lot to do with it, here in the UK I blame stamp duty (you pay a tax on the price of a house to move) and the benefit system (if you live somewhere and get laid off you can get housing benefit, if you want to move you have to pay a lot before you get any help). However I think there has been a change in attitudes in people in general to be averse to moving to find work.

People don't commute in Britain? It seems to me you are fairly lucky if you manage to find work in the place where you happen to live. (Not sure what 'the government' has to do with it. Your stamp duty example applies only to people who can afford to buy a house, I reckon.)

 

[Commodore]

When did this expectation that the work should follow the workers rather than the other way round come from?

When moving became ridiculously expensive, housing prices dropped, and companies stopped hiring people outside of their local area and paying to relocate them. Yeah, that last one is actually something companies used to do which made it a lot easier for people to follow the work instead of the other way around.

Ummmm...you do recognize that "we as a nation are responsible for making sure that where they live is economically viable" runs absolutely counter to every Republican ideal, yet they vote overwhelmingly Republican in those places while griping about the Democrats' "nanny state," right?

Yeah, I do realize that, which is why you'll never catch me claiming the Republican way is the solution to the problem.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Yeah, I do realize that, which is why you'll never catch me claiming the Republican way is the solution to the problem.

That actually wasn't about you.

The point is that the people you are suggesting need help in maintaining the economic viability of their location are in fact the people voting for embodiments of the ideal that says that maintaining that viability is their problem and no one else's. It doesn't matter if I get it, or even that you get it. They don't get it, and they vote consistently against their own self interest without even knowing it.

So collectively we are stuck with not only trying to help maintain their economic viability, but doing so over their obstruction while being vilified by them for the effort. Is there a point where moral imperative runs out and it becomes okay to just say "okay then, you're on your own"?

 

[r16]

you know there's this programme to change Turkey into a "Presidential" thing instead of the "Parliamentary" thing . With increased powers for the PM , with such urgency . The country is under threat , and actually that's real , but anyhow . The country needs leadership , though the same people have been leading the country for the last decade and a half . Half of the decade does not count ? Being before the "democratic reforms" that gave all the power needed ? So the last decade has seen such great strides , such leaps that the entire world is jealous of us and has combined to get us , so there are such fighting to pass this latest bill of increased powers . Some woman MP handcuffed her wrist to the microphones , you know so that she could block the talks for an hour or two , before they could bring a technician to dismantle the microphones . Woman MPs of A-K-P rushed to battle . The one who once carried a sign that she didn't want animals in the Parliament (for the Opposition members supposedly bite the legs of the heroic A-K-P members) was in the forefront ; she is supposedly known to be a valiant defender of the Congregation in a previous A-K-P Turkey . Supposedly giving a flying kick to the chest of a woman MP of the political branch of the seperatists . Such a melee that you can't tell who is who , weirdly all of the A-K-P woman MPs without headscarves . There's a CHP woman MP , who lacks legs and an arm and at least some of her "attachments" were knocked off her . She arrived to vote in a wheelchair . As did the flying kicker , with her neck in a support and damaged liver , naturally can't tell if it's true . Males laughed and watched and returned to normal , openly committing unlawful acts of letting their vote to be known and recorded , despite the specific article of the Constitution that calls for secret voting for changes to the Constitution . All needed for quick response to the grave threat to the country , so that the Referandum could be done at the end of March , with the time of "thinking" required by law and stuff . Everybody knows PM wants the changes .

what ? The heroic Parliament , members of which suffered broken noses to pass it quick , has been sitting on it for the last 10 days ! PM says he will campaign for "YES" despite the laws suggesting that he is to be neutral , his open refusal to do so creating the crisis which is to be corrected by the constitutional changes and everybody really knows what PM wants happens . The campaign is really on ; with stars of Football to Music are declaring their "YES" on the web , now joined by State officials , while people who chant "NO" on the streets are arrested . The evil plot of America , through Fitch which downgraded the credit rating of the country was also fought off , with a rally in the stocks market . Enemies of this country try to create an economic crisis to stop our unstoppable march to greatness . To fight this the methods of calculating the GNP was changed and per capita value increased from 9 000 to 11 000 bucks in a night . Mind you , the 9 000 value was calculated through the evil methods that had increased it to 11 something from 9 something a couple of years back . So how the heroic fight happens ? The stockmarket people who all scream at the failings of the New when on TV , happily oblige at their foreign owners at the regular affairs . People save a bit , see easy money in the stocks , come in to buy expensive ; there is a crisis and they sell cheap . The stockmarket people , smartest people in the world , fulfill their ego of having duped evilly smelly enemies once again . Not that it happenz , but this is like the 10th grave economic crisis that "would" cripple the A-K-P in the way the stockmarket people wiped out the Centre Right , to make way for the A-K-P ... (Evilly smelly people , whomever they might ever be , would see stocks falling % 50 on the day they wiped their nose , but America will not let them in anyhow ...)

so , what gives ? People are even on TV , telling how the real owners of the dollar had JFK killed , which is so popular these days . If Nathalie scores , in face of that 14 times candidate musical , it will be because of New Turkey and they will all forget she is , you know ... born somewhere . This is what drives the talk of New Turkey , for our march to greatness sounds cooler if opposed by some evil that dominates the world instead of a mere historical record like who has been responsible for the country since 2002 . While it's true the elites of Turkey has always loved the guy whomever won the US Presidential elections , like ever since 1946 or something , when the brothels in Istanbul were given a fresh coat of paint for the visit of USS Missouri , the latest race was kinda special . Evil Congregation was spending millions for Mrs Rodham so all the support was for Brother Don . A like minded person , whom might have been taped by the Colonel Putin of Kremlin so ready to do Ankara's bidding as long as Brother Vladimir was kept content . Brother Don who would kick out the elites of Establishment who have sucking the blood of the world post WW II , you know through the pitiful scenes at places like Dachau , filmed by the Allies and stuff . BSS proving to be a _ing Zionist ? Who cares ? The problem is he ignores Ankara ... That's why it's proof of the greatness of the New Turkey that Theresa May was the first to visit Whitey Homey and she flew directly to Ankara . Ankara is ruling Washington behind the scenes , though naturally we know nothing of the sort . Talk of Esad killed so that Ankara can keep dreaming of conquering Syria still so that when BSS declares the free 'stan which he needs to send us to gas chambers , Ankara can still talk of our newly liberated brothers who need us so that we can all learn to be more Arab oriented so that who were not sent to gas chambers can then become slaves to the Saudis .

confusing ? The famous tell and draw ? The shortest possible summary ? A referandum in a foreign country is delayed as people there don't know what the Whitey Homey thinks about them . If hostile , BSS might stage a true economic attack and stuff and ruin A-K-P . As such even the pollsters are lying , as they always do here , that "NO" has a 6 point advantage over "YES" ...

in case you don't know who the evilly smelly are just google up for the visit of Theresa May to Ankara where she keeps her handkerchief on her nose visiting Anıtkabir , having caught a cold . She did indeed sign a contract for the Airbus' or BAe or whatever fighter project to be sold , too .

 

[Commodore]

So collectively we are stuck with not only trying to help maintain their economic viability, but doing so over their obstruction while being vilified by them for the effort. Is there a point where moral imperative runs out and it becomes okay to just say "okay then, you're on your own"?

That's actually a tough question to answer. There's a part of me that says sometimes the only way to teach someone is to let them fail, but another part of me says we can't just abandon our people like that, no matter how much they shout they don't want our help.

 

[Samson]

People don't commute in Britain? It seems to me you are fairly lucky if you manage to find work in the place where you happen to live. (Not sure what 'the government' has to do with it. Your stamp duty example applies only to people who can afford to buy a house, I reckon.)

People commute, sure. I think we are a bit less inclined to commute many hours a day than in the US, and I generally meant move further than is really commutable.