TSG62 After Actions

[nthexwn]

nthexwn, LOVED your write-up. It was HILARIOUS!

Thanks!

Darius is a pain on nightmare due to his obscene Golden Ages, and 3 movement Immortal Pikemen. Funny that you took Persepolis with the Great Wall only after you got Artillery (since Dynamite obsoletes the GW).

Nightmare? Did you play Quake 3 or something?

I guess I'd forgotten about the dynamite great wall obsolescence. I've always noticed that it stops working in the late game, but never quite pinned down when that happened.

So what was the final vote tally?

I don't recall exactly. 12 I think. I was more interested in getting to bed since it was 5:00AM.

Thanks to nthexwn, Halcyan2, and Arillian for great write-ups. I believe that this is the best part of GotM - read how other people's game went and what other players had thought and decided after playing the same map by myself.

Agreed! And also to humble myself in comparison to the absurd times you guys manage. Nice work!

Any other civ would have to build Frigates from scratch or upgrade from Galleasses (but there's not as much time between Compass and Navigation), but Byzantium benefits from the Dromon phase, meaning your Frigates will be a lot more experienced. And if push comes to shove, you can then go for Battleships as a backup plan!

That's a good point. Getting earlier ship promotions is probably the best thing going for Byzantium. I wonder if attacking Rome first would have made more sense with all of those coastal cities? Perhaps even declaring on a coastal city-state for the free worker and then leaving the war open as a training ground for dromons might work?

 

[glory7]

I wish I had the time to play it again (going for Domination), but I genuinely believe that you can actually win faster via Domination in this game, with Theodora.

The key thing is those Dromons, which let you rack up the XP to get +1 range Frigates really quick. With +1 range Dromons and Galleasses, you can take out Rome and Germany easily. (Persepolis is a bit harder, but you can harass Persian troops with naval units and then take him with land units).

Then you tech hard for Astronomy. Once you get that you explore and find the other civs while you research Navigation. And once you have that, you upgrade to Frigates and attack immediately with +1 range, logistics, Frigates.

Any other civ would have to build Frigates from scratch or upgrade from Galleasses (but there's not as much time between Compass and Navigation), but Byzantium benefits from the Dromon phase, meaning your Frigates will be a lot more experienced. And if push comes to shove, you can then go for Battleships as a backup plan!

That's my theory at least!

This is a very good point. I did not use dromon that much - I got galleass later and upgraded them to frigates, so I should have used dromon stage to stack up XPs. I think this way you may not even need battleships.

 

[Monthar]

I wish I had the time to play it again (going for Domination), but I genuinely believe that you can actually win faster via Domination in this game, with Theodora.

The key thing is those Dromons, which let you rack up the XP to get +1 range Frigates really quick. With +1 range Dromons and Galleasses, you can take out Rome and Germany easily. (Persepolis is a bit harder, but you can harass Persian troops with naval units and then take him with land units).

Then you tech hard for Astronomy. Once you get that you explore and find the other civs while you research Navigation. And once you have that, you upgrade to Frigates and attack immediately with +1 range, logistics, Frigates.

Any other civ would have to build Frigates from scratch or upgrade from Galleasses (but there's not as much time between Compass and Navigation), but Byzantium benefits from the Dromon phase, meaning your Frigates will be a lot more experienced. And if push comes to shove, you can then go for Battleships as a backup plan!

That's my theory at least!

With enough early Dromon battles, you should be able to generate a great admiral to go meet the other civs with well before finishing astronomy.

 

[Halcyan2]

Did a replay to test (and prove) my theory that Domination is theoretically quicker.

Built only a single wonder - Great Lighthouse, which proved handy. Early Dromon rush on Rome let me take all but his capital (to much land around). Stationed 2 Dromons there while the rest of the fleet headed to Germany. By this time had gotten Navigation. Upgraded to Frigates. Took Rome. Easily took German cities.

I was then able to take all of Persia's cities but Persepolis and Pasargarde, which were both landlocked. I liberated 3 German cities in the process.

In the meantime, Celts did me a favor by taking Palanque from the Mayans.

2 Frigates and a Privateer took Thebes. Then took another pair of cities (sold one to the Mayans).

Eventually overcame Persepolis with Cannons after blasting away all his Riflemen.

Then the final sprint. Stupidly didn't realize that Edinburgh was completely out of range of my super Frigates, so I had to research Dynamite for Artillery. (Had wasted time researching Architecture and Scientific Theory, and passed on the opportunity to steal Fertilizer, so this could have been significantly faster).

Quickly took a Japanese city to launch my attack and did a good job bombarding Kyoto to red. But then giant swarms of units blocked the path for taking the city. Eventually sent a Cavalry from Persepolis to take it. I had a giant land army just sitting around Persepolis (fighting Japanese forces). Should have sent them over, and I could have taken Kyoto faster.

My end game was pretty poor with plenty of mistakes. Definitely think that sub-T200 is possible if you are good and lucky enough!

 

[Attaturk]

Game: Civ5 GOTM 62
Date submitted: 2013-06-08
Your name: Attaturk
Game status: Diplomacy Victory
Game date: 1505AD
Turns played: 211
Base score: 736
Final score: 1752
Time played: 4:07:00
Renamed file: Attaturk_C506201.Civ5Save

Noticed marble with my warrior, Settled one NE to get the marble.
Initial plan was to go with Tabarnak's tradition 4 (adjusted for seafood start).

After scouting showed that the closest enemy Darius is far away, I decide to transition to peaceful 3 city NC rush, after I got 4 archers.

Second city was South on the hill near the mountain, third city on the hill near mountain with pigs and gems (later discovered it also had rock of Gibraltar)

While NC was building, hard built settler from a second city to settle the moment after NC was built.

Capital: Scout - Granary - WB - bought set WB - WB - bought set - something - NC
Second city - archer archer library shrine granary Settler
Third city - shrine - bought library

Research: pottery - (mining from hut) - sailing - archery - calendar - AH - masonry - philo - sail - uni - astro - MC - machinery - science theory. Was lucky and hard build PT.

Used Oxford to get research labs and bough three immediately, 4th one was hardbuilt.

Religion: +1 hammer from boats, tithe, growth when at peace, +1 food from temples/shrines, cheaper missionaries and +15% production

Policies: Tradition, left 3 rat, 1 order. Bought one engineer and one scientist

Since the Rome was constantly planning to attack me (he never carried though though), I spied on him constantly as I was teching the upper part of the tree and he was providing me with cheap bottom of the tree techs.

Concerning development was that Darius was slowly destroying Germany eradicating it completely.

Uneventful rush to university and astronomy.

Darius eventually eradicated germans completely. The next unfortunate development was that Rome put a city between me and Darius which Darius quickly captured and now was sitting on my border with sea of cannons and 11000 gold.

Okay. Gave Darius 200 + 2 oil to go attack Japan (second strongest).

Next turn, couple of civs denounced darius.
I set everything to gold, get 6000gold from darius, denounce him, buy up a few cheap states from under him, buy battleship, and declare war from him. Two turns before getting the UN, put some fodder around the cap hoping to get UN before he captures my capital. (Which he didn't. He was more interested in two city states on my east), He captured one, other was still standing when the game was over.

Probably he would have captured my cap in the next 5 turns. Luckily the game was won by then.

I felt very unsafe this game. If Darius has decided to attack me, as soon as he was done with Germany, it would be very difficult to fend him off.

 

[Xicivilian]

Game: Civ5 GOTM 62
Date submitted: 2013-06-09
Reference number: 29132
Your name: Xicivilian
Game status: Conquest Loss
Game date: 575BC
Turns played: 92
Base score: 82
Final score: 82
Time played: 1:36:00
Submitted save: TSG62_Loss.Civ5Save
Renamed file: Xicivilian_C506201.Civ5Save

I tried this one, but I am not expierenced enough to beat it on Immortal or Deity. Did a 3C Tradition start, but did build cities too late. Darius was too mighty and defeated me.

Maybe try it again after reading this forum.

 

[Attaturk]

Halcyan:

Can you provide more details of your rush?

I tried to rush them with 8 dromons after I build 3 workboats and bought a second settler.

By that time the first coastal Roman city I encountered had ballista in and was killing one dromon per turn if I was getting close.

What was your build order? How early did you attack?

 

[Halcyan2]

Halcyan:

Can you provide more details of your rush?

I tried to rush them with 8 dromons after I build 3 workboats and bought a second settler.

By that time the first coastal Roman city I encountered had ballista in and was killing one dromon per turn if I was getting close.

What was your build order? How early did you attack?

I'll have to check.

Rome had Composites and Ballista, but wasn't able to one shot any of my units. I had built one Dromon in Constantinople (from the West) early on and followed with a second much later, and then I immediately bought about 4 or 5 Dromons from my second city (near Gibraltar).

I was lucky in that the Romans settled their city on the one tile land bridge connecting both bodies of water - which allowed me to attack from both coasts (and later I could transport my fleet along both sides). There was even space to land two Composites, though they didn't contribute much (attacked by Legion, survived, and forced to retreat into the water). With a different city placement, I could still have taken it, but it would have taken a few extra turns.

I'll have to check by dates to see exactly when I attacked. When did you attack? Which direction did your Dromons come from?

 

[Arilian]

Noob question: You cannot capture a city with a dromon, can you?

 

[Attaturk]

I attacked from the west, around turn 60. Healing my injured dromons in friendly Lisbon.

Augustus built Neapolis 3 tiles away from the landbridge so I could not stick my city there.

 

[Halcyan2]

Noob question: You cannot capture a city with a dromon, can you?

Nope, since it's a ranged unit.

I bought along an embarked Warrior who captured it once the Dromons reduced the city to 0 HP.

 

[Halcyan2]

Checking my replay log:

T76: DoW on Rome
T79: Take Arretium (one tile landbridge)
T90: Take Cumae (to the west)
T100: Take Neopolis (to the east)
T105: Take Ravenna (to the southeast)

T122: Take Antium (to the south)
* By this time, he was one-shoting units, so I had to take the city down to 0 HP, and then wait another 5 or 6 turns until my embarked units got an extra movement
* I also sold Antium to the Germans to manage happiness. (But took it back for good after DoW'ing Germany).

T149: Take Rome.
* Had to wait for Frigates until I could do significant enough damage

See the attached screenshots for the layout of the Roman territory.

In terms of capital cities taken:

T109: Palanque (Mayans) lost to Celts
T149: Rome
T150: Berlin
T161: Thebes
T193: Persepolis (with Cannons)
T206: Edinburgh (could have taken a few turns earlier, but held off to avoid unhappiness issues)
T207: Kyoto

 

[tomoliop]

Game: Civ5 GOTM 62
Date submitted: 2013-06-11
Reference number: 29143
Your name: tomoliop
Game status: Incomplete Retired
Game date: 1540AD
Turns played: 218
Base score: 374
Final score: 374
Time played: 2:49:00

I got owned Didn't actually expect to win though. I quit when Darius got my capital. For many turns I was involved in a war with Ceasar, getting some minor puppets. I'm surprised that Darius didn't attack, way, way earlier. I was in the bottom almost all the time. Lost to Great war inf, having riflemen and enemy had overwhelming numbers. I have no idea what could I have done to win, was kinda going for a diplomatic victory. Maybe a very early aggression was the way to do this. Settled 4 cities, tradition. My cap got converted thrice by Persia...

 

[Attaturk]

Settled 4 cities, tradition. My cap got converted thrice by Persia...

I also did 4 cities tradition. All of my cities were far away from Darius. Once thing that helped, I converted Darius cap to my religion and he became very friendly to me.

He only start getting anxious to attack me after he captured a roman city on my east border and we started sharing borders.

 

[Maxym]

Checking my replay log:

T122: Take Antium (to the south)
* By this time, he was one-shoting units, so I had to take the city down to 0 HP, and then wait another 5 or 6 turns until my embarked units got an extra movement

T207: Kyoto

You could have hidden it under a throwaway boat. City shoots first even if they sink it the range can't sink a unit if it's fairly advanced.

I do like your idea of promoting dromons, once you get them going they can take cities fow a long time as we can see and make frigates that much more viable. I got mine late and they were getting almost wasted with city and cannon attacks, if he kept building ships I would not be able to take any cities.

 

[Halcyan2]

You could have hidden it under a throwaway boat. City shoots first even if they sink it the range can't sink a unit if it's fairly advanced.

I do like your idea of promoting dromons, once you get them going they can take cities fow a long time as we can see and make frigates that much more viable. I got mine late and they were getting almost wasted with city and cannon attacks, if he kept building ships I would not be able to take any cities.

Yeah, but at that point all of my available ships were valuable (had +1 range or were close to getting it).

In addition, there was no particular rush for taking that city. I also wouldn't be able to take Rome for a very long time.

But yeah, taking the city earlier would have been possible if I was willing to sacrifice more units. Even sending multiple melee units would have worked.

 

[Chromehound]

I guess I waited to long to make a move against any other civs. I thought a good defense would hold up long enough, but alas, it was not.

Around 140ish, Rome declared and tried to make a move but he wasn't able to get anywhere with me until 185ish when Persia declared as well, and basically swept in with no problem whatsoever.

If Persia would've just left me alone, I would've defended off Rome no problem, and I was really starting to get some money/happiness/faith rolling in with the 3 cities I had. Buncha meanies I tell ya

 

[Maxym]

Game: Civ5 GOTM 62
Date submitted: 2013-06-11
Reference number: 29143
Your name: tomoliop
Game status: Incomplete Retired
Game date: 1540AD
Turns played: 218
Base score: 374
Final score: 374
Time played: 2:49:00

I got owned Didn't actually expect to win though. I quit when Darius got my capital. For many turns I was involved in a war with Ceasar, getting some minor puppets. I'm surprised that Darius didn't attack, way, way earlier. I was in the bottom almost all the time. Lost to Great war inf, having riflemen and enemy had overwhelming numbers. I have no idea what could I have done to win, was kinda going for a diplomatic victory. Maybe a very early aggression was the way to do this. Settled 4 cities, tradition. My cap got converted thrice by Persia...

I found out that if you stayed out of his way and kept him busy he leaves you alone if not sharing borders. I didn't settle next to Kailash and AI don't like settling desert so he stayed away. I did have to fence out German settlers if they broke through Darius would have conquered them and then I would have borders and him on my neck. Did the same to Egypt late in the game but slipped up and got a troll city on my borders followed by huge army going to invade me. Last minute Darius fin all agreed to my bribe and attacked Egypt and saved me a tough fight.

 

[Maxym]

Yeah, but at that point all of my available ships were valuable (had +1 range or were close to getting it).

In addition, there was no particular rush for taking that city. I also wouldn't be able to take Rome for a very long time.

But yeah, taking the city earlier would have been possible if I was willing to sacrifice more units. Even sending multiple melee units would have worked.

Did you check if units stack with work boats? If so then that would be a cheap cover. I think they do and naval and range attack different target in that stack if I remember correctly.

 

[Maxym]

I guess I waited to long to make a move against any other civs. I thought a good defense would hold up long enough, but alas, it was not.

Around 140ish, Rome declared and tried to make a move but he wasn't able to get anywhere with me until 185ish when Persia declared as well, and basically swept in with no problem whatsoever.

If Persia would've just left me alone, I would've defended off Rome no problem, and I was really starting to get some money/happiness/faith rolling in with the 3 cities I had. Buncha meanies I tell ya

You just got to pay him to keep fighting someone else, as soon as one war ends pay for another. That's number one priority and since he was a runaway it was not too expensive 300-700 for me in most cases.

Fighting defensive wars on deity is losing proposition as I found out many times, once they hit flight they tear your range units to pieces and it's game over. You have to get to their core lands by then or beeline flight.