TSG79 After Actions

Tab - I wish I could have gotten a throttle on Poland like you did. France wants the airports or at least flight sooner because they buff chateau.

I think the real chance here, which I don't think anyone did was world religion, especially with so much faith in our desert. That would have really increased tourism in Paris and ended it fast.
 
t274 victory with two cities. Not too bad considering I got off to a rough start. Lost a scout plus the settler he had stolen early on, got a DOW from Poland (that I barely withstood) before I had finished Petra and NC, and he settled all around me. At turn 100 I think my science was like 27.

But thank god that capital was amazing. Seriously, with HG and Petra that's one of the best caps I've had. Never had to compromise between growth and hammers. Always plenty of both. Building wonders was a breeze. I mean, archaeologists in two turns? Yes please. Without that capital I never would have caught up.

Still, my tech was slow. I reached airports just a couple of turns before I won. Didn't need them really. Started the musician onslaught after hotels, and the initial wave was not quite enough, so I had to wait for a bit, but it all worked out in the end. Biggest culture guy was Ethiopia. At the beginning I thought it may be Brazil, but thanks to the Zulu, Brazil ceased to exist about halfway through the game.

Luckily Poland played nice with me after our first war. He had the largest military through the whole game, so I really wanted to keep him busy. I bribed him into a lot of wars, and he didn't wind up founding a religion, so he was happy to get mine. Even gave him cash when he asked (I don't usually do this, but it wasn't a lot, and I really wanted to keep him happy). Later on when we had opposing ideologies (I took Freedom, he went Order) I even built him a landmark just to avoid trouble. Although I did take the free Foreign Legions at one point to be on the safe side.

In retrospect I think I should have stuck with one city until after HG/Petra/NC and blocked off Poland from stealing all the good spots. Should have settled south and east instead of west by Poland. Would have been a much smoother start.

I also should have sunk more policies into Rationalism. I stopped after secularism and finished aesthetics. Should have gone humanism and free thought first since my science was so bad. Hitting hotels and airports earlier would have helped more than getting the aesthetics bonuses earlier, I think.


- How did you use religion or spying to your advantage?
- Did the map type help or hinder victory and how?
- How did the difficulty level affect your game decisions?
- Did France's new unique traits contribute to your game plan or victory/loss? If so, how?

-Religion went well, lots of faith from desert/temples/grand temple/planted prophets. Spread it to all of Poland and a few city states and it held up pretty well against missionary spam. Lots of money from tithe. Also took growth bonus and production bonus.

With spying I was only able to steal a few weak techs. Later I used them to rig elections in all the cultural CS, then finally used them as diplomats when the time was right.

-Map was good. Great capital. Super expanding and aggressive Poland was an obstacle, though.

-Immortal is definitely a lot easier than Deity for CV. If I played this same map on deity, I'm not sure I would have won. And for sure it wouldn't have been until Internet. Much easier to get the wonders you need on Immortal.

-The double theming bonus is of course very helpful. Doesn't change the strategy much, though, as you more or less build everything in your capital for CV anyway. I did build a few Chateaus in each city for a boost later, too. Come to think of it, I probably should have spammed more of them late in the game.

Anyway, fun game! CVs are growing on me. Definitely the most involved and interesting VC.

edit:
Game: Civ5 GOTM 79
Date submitted: 2014-02-06 11:34:33
Reference number: 30585
Your name: mhtrtc
Game status: Culture Victory
Game date: 1808AD
Turns played: 274
Base score: 1142
Final score: 2114
Time played: 4:50:00
 
Could've just planted them if you didn't want the diplo hit....

I planted them all... Had no other use for them as my neighbours all had religion and Poland was being a pain so decided not to push them (further) over the edge!

Point I suppose was that I wanted to save the faith to buy a different Great Person or two later in the game (i.e., a GE to finish a wonder, a GS to blast a bit more science or GMs to eat into Brazil's stupendous culture).

I still had 5,000 faith to burn up at the end but it was not enough to make me more than Popular in Brazil after my GM rush (although fat finger purchasing a GA instead of a GM during my rush certainly didn't help either!).

This wasn't the sole reason for my loss - I did plenty of other stuff wrong. I guess the question in there is whether people find religion's auto-GP spawn a hinderance if the main perk they're after from religion is FPT?
 
T182, I'm bad.
I manage so badly Poland. He backstab me twice. So I miss PP and Uffuzi. I think, I'll miss Louvre too. Pedro is running away (PP, Global theatre, Uffizi). And Poland is really annoying.

My bad, I didn't harass Poland.

I'm tech leader. I think, I'll rush artillery to conquer all but Ethiopia (now wiped by Zulus).
A T300 victory, I suppose.

I break, it's around 3 hours to conquer the map. So, later...
 
T254 I dropped. I can't go in Poland territory. Too many hussards. 30 turns and only one city razed. No coal, no alu, no oil. Casimir have flight and airplane, I'm 8 turn from Balistic. If I can wipe it T300, there's still Pedro and Indonesia.
I choose bad strat. Louvre is not build, maybe with it and Internet T350 victory was possible. It's too late.

Pedro is far, far away.
 
T254 I dropped. I can't go in Poland territory. Too many hussards. 30 turns and only one city razed. No coal, no alu, no oil. Casimir have flight and airplane, I'm 8 turn from Balistic. If I can wipe it T300, there's still Pedro and Indonesia.
I choose bad strat. Louvre is not build, maybe with it and Internet T350 victory was possible. It's too late.

Pedro is far, far away.

I'm sorry you couldn't pull off a win. Take another look at my screen shot on page one, maybe you will feel better. :)
 
Thanks. It's a good lesson, despite it's on Immortal.
I made mistakes :
- In fact, I thought I send my Polish friends to Russia. Nope, I forgot.
- I realize that a few turns later when I saw his army around my border. I try to manage a war (my trend to see «what happen if I push this red button ?»). I know AI offer peace if you kill some units (I need to count how many next game). I was surprise by second backstab DoW. I was friend, research agreement and he was at war with Brazil (for 10 gpt from me). I had a simultaneous DoW from Shaka (???).
- I went to artillery after Uffuzi fall. But a couple of turn later I realize, Uffuzi will be not need with Ermitage theme bonus. I never had this two bonus in same game.
- Poznan is where you have your Orleans. I went for it after Lodz (He put it just between two hills with gold south west). I was more clever to go by north, not straight ahead. 5 Frigates said welcome to my musketeers as Polish know do it.
- Match turn was when I miss a lonely Polis seetler T30 or 40. I was so surprise to see it alone so far for Warsaw, I miss click correct tile. Next turn Wroclaw was land. Damned.

Despite, loose (and I have a near a month to try to continue this game), it was fun. Defeat is nice when, you use to win. Specially, before this game I had two or three try with France on a Petra start to see how I can maximize victory (T256 is my high score).

Thanks team for this map.
 
Game: Civ5 GOTM 79
Date submitted: 2014-02-10 17:12:54
Reference number: 30605
Your name: notyourtypical
Game status: Culture Victory
Game date: 1740AD
Turns played: 259
Base score: 1348
Final score: 2643
Time played: 2:30:00
Submitted save: Napoleon_0259 AD-1745.Civ5Save
Renamed file: notyourtypical_C507901.Civ5Save

First Immortal game in which I tried for Hanging Gardens, because I decided to head for Petra when I saw the start. There were enough desert hills to make Petra worthwhile. Early game went Pottery and then straight to currency. I got the National College around turn 90, and immediately after I planted my second and third cities. After Philosophy I went Civil Service to Education. Normally I feel like a delayed expansion hurts me in the long run, but Paris was able to grow so fast it hardly mattered.

Poland took out Brazil with the Zulu and then Ethiopia, so I had no high culture Civ to overcome, which helped my victory come quickly, before Radar. Poland was a bipolar prick the whole game, as expected. He offered two DoFs, which he ended both times with a backstab Denouncement. Poland never declared on me; every time he denounced I gave him a luxury and pointed him at someone else. By the end he was in a war with the Zulu, Ethiopia, The Shoshone and Indonesia. Russia played nice as she adopted my religion and liked my World Council proposals. She took Order to my Freedom, and when she started to cool on our relationship, I threw a few gold at Shaka, who was more than happy to start a war with her.

Tech wise, I think I took the lead mid-Renaissance and never looked back. Spies were always used as Diplomats. I had my pick of wonders, and snagged every one I wanted, for a huge capital (population 30+) by the Renaissance makes it trivial.

Thanks for the fun game, being squished between Russia and Poland put Diplomacy to the test. If you could keep your neighbors happy, or at least hating someone else more than you, you had free reign to wonder spam. The difficulty was restraining yourself from settling that nice spot to the west, or declaring on Casimir because you were tired of suffering him and his antics, deciding instead to wipe his kingdom off the face of the planet and sacrificing turns.

Spoiler :
IgKxLbh.jpg
 
This game was a new experience in several ways: It was the first time I attempted a tourism victory, it was the first time I played as France and it was the first time I did not build any extra cities. Because of all these novel experiences I had a enjoyable game. Luckily I had some wars to spice things up. Poland attacked me twice I once I had to reign in the Zulus. The foreign legion really helped there.

What went well:
1) I think I picked a good spot for Paris, the settler went to the hill to the south instead of settling at the starting location.
2) Competitor Brazil was taken out soon by the Zulu
3) Managed to unite the world against the Zulu when they threatened to take ovet the whole map.

What went bad:
1) Religion. I lost three great prophets to war suddenly breaking out. Lesson learned: escort great prophets with a strong military unit. My last prophet died at sea, unfortunately I could not provide an escort there because I had no coastal cities.
2) The game probably would have ended faster if I had build a second city
3) Production penalties because I had too many units. I just could not bring myself to disbanding high level veteran units.

Spoiler :
A6AB9D8BB97A6328A5DA41D0C4CCF70FD7782533



Game: Civ5 GOTM 79
Date submitted: 2014-02-11 03:53:45
Reference number: 30607
Your name: Alphons Rodulfo
Game status: Culture Victory
Game date: 1904AD
Turns played: 324
Base score: 1113
Final score: 1739
Time played: 13:47:00
Submitted save: Napoleon_0324 AD-1904.Civ5Save
Renamed file: Alphons_Rodulfo_C507901.Civ5Save
 
Ugh, really terrible game for me. I'll post the standard summary when I get home and have time to upload the save.

Basic result: ~T292. Two key mistakes. 1) Playing 100% peaceful. 2) Thinking I could skip research labs and bulb scientists 8 turns after stocking public schools.

#2 is a result of playing almost exclusively domination lately... I got confused between chateau and airports, thinking I just needed Flight for both, so I used Oxford on Public Schools and bulbed my way through Radio and Flight by burning all my GS. I only planted one GS, as a result. :lol: I also didn't fill Rationalism until after Aesthetics. Another lesson I'd forgotten. Silly rabbit, Culture VC is Science VC.

#1... well I should know better but I forgot that you can't play peaceful next to Poland without greatly impacting your turn of victory. Peaceful CV is IMHO inferior to carefully targeted aggression in terms of finish times anyway, but with Poland, doubly so. I tried to play peaceful and immediately regretted it. To those who think that *not being aggressive* (IE not forward-settling) is how you avoid conflict, sorry, I think you're wrong. You need to grab the most productive city spots for good mid-game growth, and it's worth building units to defend those spots. There are virtually no long-term diplo hits for defending yourself effectively.

IMHO, there are two ways to avoid conflict with Poland.

1) Beat him down early.
2) Bribe him repeatedly the entire game.

If you think #2 is cheaper and slows down your VC less than #1, especially for cultural VC, well I think you're wrong. :)

IMHO it would have been better to plan to fight him from the start, even deviating from my tech path and build order to do so.

After reading the other results, I think Tabarnak's 5-city solution was the ideal approach. Instead of bribing Poland all game, one should invest in units up front, build 3 cities, wait for him to put up like 5-6 cities, which won't take long, and then respond to his aggression when it inevitably comes by getting two of his expos either via peace deals or outright capture. Minor diplo hits at most, but likely zero. :goodjob: Tabarnak!

Anyway, here is the result of my misguided attempt to remain peaceful when surrounded by aggressive forward-settlers. Russia was up on my doorstep by t65. Poland by t32. Poland was very grateful that I decided to open Tradition, and delay building a settler until t40, so he forward-settled on me with his first and second satellites, leaving me terrible city spots, and he still wanted my land. I spent the entire game and *most of my gpt* bribing him not to attack me. These bribed wars backfired, as he quickly took out Indonesia (entirely), shoshone (two cities), one randomly placed brazilian expo, most of Ethiopia, and was soon a runaway in every sense but culture.

My consistently low gpt put pressure on my build queue and ability to trade lux for lux, which in turn hurt my growth a lot. With Petra, I should have been size 30 by t150. Instead, I spent the whole game making hard choices between production, growth and specialists.

Also, randomly, despite Ethiopia being down to one city, I still had to put out 40k tourism total to overcome him. He managed to ally almost every cultural CS and with my bribe-induced financial woes, I couldn't do anything to stop it. I eventually managed to get Shaka, Shoshone and Poland to attack Ethiopia at once to try to slow him down... no dice. All their combined attacks couldn't break Addis Ababa. I convinced Poland to capture a bunch of his CS allies... but it was too late. I even blocked World's Fair, but it didn't help. Or rather... it could have been much worse!!!

At least I didn't have to waste my own hammers on WF, so I got every CV wonder that I wanted... which ended up being more than I needed. Without conquest, you can't spawn enough artists to fill uffizi, sistine chapel, louvre and hermitage... another reason you need to capture. (I did eventually get enough art to fill them via culture flip... I flipped two polish cities and one Shoshone city and got 3 artworks... but it was post musician bulb...)

Going for hermitage was another mental error. I chose that religious belief instead of +15% growth, another mistake. This isn't even close to my own Immortal CV record, but it's been so long since I've tried, I kind of forgot how to do it. :P

I also went for victory too early, which cost me a lot of turns. I built the musician's guild on t230, which was incredibly optimistic given my influence level. After faith-purchasing, and completing Broadway (which I'd kept at one turn) I ended up short: 90% influence on t250 after bulbing 6 GMs. Took me another 40 freaking turns to overcome him after that, and I ended up spawning another GM naturally as a result. :lol:

I did manage to dig up every artifact I could find, so I had a ton of raw tourism, but not nearly enough theming bonuses. I should have gone for Globe Theatre instead of Hermitage I think...

So poorly played. :( And on top of that, this could easily be t220 victory via eliminating Brazil and Ethiopia or heck, even by bullying Poland early. Ah well, it was a good reminder. I'm once again fully convinced that all these threads where people say "you wouldn't have that problem if you'd played peaceful and not aggressively put out cities"... well... they're just finishing 40 turns later than they could have because of that philosophy. Especially with Poland as a neighbor. Just my opinion. :D
 
Ugh, really terrible game for me. I'll post the standard summary when I get home and have time to upload the save.

1) Beat him down early.
2) Bribe him repeatedly the entire game.

Option 3) be super nice, send him a trade route, settle back towards the east instead of towards him (the narrow corridor to the east against Russia is much more easy to defend and you can block her settlers with 3 scouts/archers, and in my game a camp even spawned there), make him WC host, vote up all his proposals, build him a landmark...
He is not Monty (or Maria, as I learned recently how irrational she can be despite several green modifiers)... he can be a nice friend sometimes... and even without bribes he'll slow down Ethiopia for you because you are last on his attack list (in my case he helped wipe them off completely)

Forward settling costs hammers to defend it; hammers which could've given your capitol a hanging gardens or Petra, which can snowball into something much, much better than a mere riverside satellite.
 
Option 3) be super nice, send him a trade route, settle back towards the east instead of towards him (the narrow corridor to the east against Russia is much more easy to defend), make him WC host, vote up all his proposals, build him a landmark...
He is not Monty... he can be a nice friend sometimes...

I settled away from him and yet he forward-settled and had an army outside my borders by t60... and despite showing red text for wanting my land he wanted a DOF and open borders. I'm not stupid enough to give him open borders in that scenario... I know how Poland works. Sorry, Poland is only your friend when he *doesn't want your land*. ;) He went from Guarded to Friendly in one turn and the text was still bright red. I'm not that foolish!

Also, Russia forward-settled on me too, leaving me only that small mountainous (zero-food) region to the southeast and the spot next to the CS to the north. I had one good expo (with no uniques) near the CS, and a really crappy desert/ocean/mountain expo to the southeast with one copper. All in the name of playing nice. Next time I would just do it my way: Forward-settle on Poland, stealing his workers and/or settler if he tries to do the same, grab two of his incense, let him dow me and suicide his units ineffectively, take cities in a peace deal, thus blocking his expansion off his little peninsula completely. That is how you deal with Poland.
 
Also, Russia forward-settled on me too, leaving me only that small mountainous (zero-food) region to the southeast and the spot next to the CS to the north.

Narrow corridors are your friend... (next time just post 3 units there and block off her settlers); mind you people have won this map OCC...

Sure warmongering wins faster in terms of turns, but I'm sure it takes way more clicks :lol: in realtime I'm sure peaceful finishes much faster (my time was 2:02 for example)
 
I think it's hindsight, and unwise, to say to keep 3 units occupied from t50 on blocking that bridge... even if you'd predicted that she would forward settle that far, can you really afford to have 3 units over there that early when Poland has his army at your borders?

Of course it can be won OCC. But it's not efficient. The gotm is scored by fastest finish time, and the fastest I've seen posted so far involved taking some of poland's cities. I think that speaks for itself. :P

I do wish there were additional requirements sometimes. Like "peaceful CV": you may not DoW or capture cities, nor accept them in peace deals. Or for domination: you may not attack until you have X technology. Something to make it more interesting and have the game play out more how it was intended. Like, if you pick a civ with a modern UU, how boring is it if all the top finished won before getting that UU? But that's a different issue.
 
The gotm is scored by fastest finish time...I do wish there were additional requirements sometimes.



Noob question: How does overall score get factored? Is it mostly scaled to LENGTH of game? I ask because I too wish there was another way to determine "winners" for GOTM other than fastest time. I haven't played enough games (GOTM or otherwise) all the way through to know the answer. Seems there could be some way to rank the submissions other than fastest finish time--maybe not Domination or Science games, but surely for CV/DV...
 
can you really afford to have 3 units over there that early when Poland has his army at your borders?

I do wish there were additional requirements sometimes. Like "peaceful CV": you may not DoW or capture cities, nor accept them in peace deals.

:lol: he wouldn't have his armies at your borders if you didn't forward-settle him :lol: and this is immortal (on deity I might be a bit reluctant but then again I wouldn't go HG on deity anyway); as long as he doesn't start with an extra city, you don't really have to worry about getting wiped out in 50 turns... (there's no way he'll have enough to finish you off)

I know right? CV is one VC that is VERY dependent on what AIs do to you and to each other... (I wonder if we could have an "always peace" option...)
 
I keep telling you I didn't forward settle on him. I settled away from him. That was the whole problem. I should have. Conflict was inevitable. Better it to be on my terms, and better land for me that way.
 
I keep telling you I didn't forward settle on him. I settled away from him. That was the whole problem. I should have. Conflict was inevitable. Better it to be on my terms, and better land for me that way.

True. Even though I fought so much, it was in my first ring, not in my cap. The tension and excitement, really drew my attention away from the order at hand, but if I had taken my time, I think I could have finished in good time.
 
The key to victory was:

a) bribing Poland and Zulus to continual war with each other and with someone else

b) Paris - holy city of World Religion + french UA +hotel
 

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The key to victory was:

a) bribing Poland and Zulus to continual war with each other and with someone else

b) Paris - holy city of World Religion + french UA +hotel

How did you manage t209? with Great Works of Music instead of concert tours!?! Oh wait, the map tells the tale. Shaka eliminated Ethiopia and Brazil for you. How convenient. My bribes to Shaka and Poland to attack them didn't help. Shaka got crushed by Brazil, Poland took out everyone but Ethiopia, leaving me the culture whores to struggle with. Your tourism output wouldn't have resulted in t209 victory in my roll. You forward-settled on Poland, I didn't, yet I had to spend virtually all my gpt to keep him from killing me because he wanted my lands so bad. Yay randomness. :(

This is why I war! Screw random. If you want culture runaways eliminated, sometimes ya gotta do it yourself. ;)
 
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