[R&F] TSL Europe: Netherlands unplayable?

[Inlex]

Ok.. I just downloaded and started a game of R&F before work. Which was silly, I know. I didn't even get a full turn in.

TSL Europe map with Netherlands (surprise). Now I obviously expected Germany to be close, but running in to them on turn ZERO seems a bit much. I understand that Aachen is closeby and Netherlands is a small country. Especially on the scale that civ maps are made. However, it seems to me that Netherlands TSL is almost certainly unplayable* on higher difficulties, given the fact that I will likely run in to France and Poland within another turn or two and their extra settlers will be smacked right on your face.

Should I ride it out? Hoping to start flipping cities through loyalty? Cause I'm pretty sure settling anywhere will be out of the question. I wonder if it's a matter of bad map design, the map size itself or a complete lack of testing the TSL... any thoughts?

* This is based on literally zero turns. I had to go to work so forgive me if I'm judging too soon ;-)

 

[clapyourhands]

I'm pretty sure there is very little testing of the various map types, at most they probably run them a few times to make sure they are functional. I don't blame the map design, though; the provided TSL map is a bit wonky in some places, but it's called "True Starting Locations," and if two capitals really were the equivalent of one-three tiles away in reality, it wouldn't be much of a "true starting location" to move one of them the in-game equivalent of hundreds of miles away. Mod TSLs do adjust the map and starting locations to be more playable, but that's because their focus is on TSL gameplay, whereas the Firaxis map really seems more of an afterthought in comparison to the randomly-generated maps.

 

[Bechhold]

Hence the need for a HUGE Earth and TSL Earth map.

 

[Inlex]

I'm pretty sure there is very little testing of the various map types, at most they probably run them a few times to make sure they are functional. I don't blame the map design, though; the provided TSL map is a bit wonky in some places, but it's called "True Starting Locations," and if two capitals really were the equivalent of one-three tiles away in reality, it wouldn't be much of a "true starting location" to move one of them the in-game equivalent of hundreds of miles away. Mod TSLs do adjust the map and starting locations to be more playable, but that's because their focus is on TSL gameplay, whereas the Firaxis map really seems more of an afterthought in comparison to the randomly-generated maps.

I believe if you add a TSL Europe map to the official product, it should be balanced at least a little. Even if that means slightly altering the dimensions of 'Europe'. It always seems to me that countries are a bit too small and there's too much water. The best modmaps have been altered for playability, like you said For instance; shortening the gap between europe-americas-japan or enlarging a number of islands, such as the Caribbean, for playability. Central to Western Europe should have more buildable area to accommodate the sheer number of civs that are in the game.

I believe that to be in the best interest of FIraxis themselves as well. Most 'casual' CIV players I know, love to play TSL maps because they like to play their own country at (somewhat) the correct location. If that location turns out to be unfun to play, it's probably better to prioritize gameplay over 'realism'. But perhaps I'm wrong about the way people like to play their games ;-)

 

[CPWimmer]

Perhaps there is an ideal set of countries to get a balance on that map? To spread everyone out a bit. I assume Spain, England, Greece and Russia plus maybe only 2 others depending on your preference?

 

[Duuk]

I believe if you add a TSL Europe map to the official product, it should be balanced at least a little.

"True Start Location" means True Start Location. Pro tip: Rome, France, Germany, Britain, and Russia had better TSL start locations than Netherlands. Outside of a brief few hundred years during the late Renaissance when Germany/HRE and France were busy elsewhere, the Netherlands TSL has been used as a fast lane to combat between the rest of the Great Powers. Even the Habsburgs managed to get in on owning it for a while. So forming a major empire out of a Netherlands TSL Europe map should be almost impossible because, in game scale, the Netherlands never had more than 1 (MAYBE 2) city-areas on the map. The overwhelming majority of their profitable holdings were overseas, which wouldn't be modeled on a Europe-only map.

 

[ferretbacon]

Hence the need for a HUGE Earth and TSL Earth map.

I can't believe Firaxis's official Earth and TSL Earth maps aren't scalable. Having only Standard size really limits what civilizations you can include. Also, England, Japan, and now Scotland are pretty much unplayable.

 

[PhilBowles]

Ok.. I just downloaded and started a game of R&F before work. Which was silly, I know. I didn't even get a full turn in.

TSL Europe map with Netherlands (surprise). Now I obviously expected Germany to be close, but running in to them on turn ZERO seems a bit much. I understand that Aachen is closeby and Netherlands is a small country. Especially on the scale that civ maps are made. However, it seems to me that Netherlands TSL is almost certainly unplayable* on higher difficulties, given the fact that I will likely run in to France and Poland within another turn or two and their extra settlers will be smacked right on your face.

Should I ride it out? Hoping to start flipping cities through loyalty? Cause I'm pretty sure settling anywhere will be out of the question. I wonder if it's a matter of bad map design, the map size itself or a complete lack of testing the TSL... any thoughts?

* This is based on literally zero turns. I had to go to work so forgive me if I'm judging too soon ;-)

This is an issue with multiple civs on the default TSL map, which is too small. I started a game as Egypt at one point and was immediately adjacent to one if the Arabian warriors. The script really needs to be improved so that, when civs are randomly selected, only those with a starting position X tiles away from another in the same game can be included (i.e. choosing the Netherlands, England, Germany and France would not spawn in the same game).

 

[Duuk]

This is an issue with multiple civs on the default TSL map, which is too small. I started a game as Egypt at one point and was immediately adjacent to one if the Arabian warriors. The script really needs to be improved so that, when civs are randomly selected, only those with a starting position X tiles away from another in the same game can be included (i.e. choosing the Netherlands, England, Germany and France would not spawn in the same game).

The "Arabian" civ is a misnomer in the base game though. The capital is Cairo, and the Firaxis TSL start location for it is in... wait for it... Egypt

 

[pgm123]

I believe if you add a TSL Europe map to the official product, it should be balanced at least a little. Even if that means slightly altering the dimensions of 'Europe'. It always seems to me that countries are a bit too small and there's too much water. The best modmaps have been altered for playability, like you said For instance; shortening the gap between europe-americas-japan or enlarging a number of islands, such as the Caribbean, for playability. Central to Western Europe should have more buildable area to accommodate the sheer number of civs that are in the game.

I believe that to be in the best interest of FIraxis themselves as well. Most 'casual' CIV players I know, love to play TSL maps because they like to play their own country at (somewhat) the correct location. If that location turns out to be unfun to play, it's probably better to prioritize gameplay over 'realism'. But perhaps I'm wrong about the way people like to play their games ;-)

I would like a script running that uses alternate locations based on who is in the game. So if Netherlands are in, Germany starts in Berlin or Munich. If not, it starts in Frederick's real capital. But the other option would be to have a German alternative leader. What I don't want is to have a game without the Netherlands only for Frederick to start in Berlin. That is the worst option.

 

[ferretbacon]

This is an issue with multiple civs on the default TSL map, which is too small. I started a game as Egypt at one point and was immediately adjacent to one if the Arabian warriors. The script really needs to be improved so that, when civs are randomly selected, only those with a starting position X tiles away from another in the same game can be included (i.e. choosing the Netherlands, England, Germany and France would not spawn in the same game).

Yeah, it's way too small. I curate which civs will be included if I use it.