[Tuning] Religion: Enhancer Beliefs

[ElliotS]

I've been thinking that a nice and consistent buff to Zealotry would be the ability to use faith to also upgrade units, not just buy them. I'm not sure if the game mechanics allow for this or if it would be too OP, but it'd bring it much more on par with the other really strong enhancer beliefs.

I think Zealotry is pretty good right now, if too expensive later on. (Because Faith doesn't scale as much as gold, and boats/planes become more important and can't be faith bought.)

 

[Owlbebach]

Does anyone here exept me think that Sainthood (and possibly Tithes) are also a bit imbalanced? Problem is that if your religion is weak - they give you almost nothing, while if your religion is strong - sainthood is auto win (if you have good faith income - churches + santhood is an insane combo).

Ideally i think it should grow logarithmically - giving much more for first followers, while giving less for every next follower. Not sure how to implement it.
Another idea is to flipp it with Tithes so they will be "+1sci / +1faith" one and "+1gold / +1cult" another.

 

[ElliotS]

Does anyone here exept me think that Sainthood (and possibly Tithes) are also a bit imbalanced? Problem is that if your religion is weak - they give you almost nothing, while if your religion is strong - sainthood is auto win (if you have good faith income - churches + santhood is an insane combo).

Ideally i think it should grow logarithmically - giving much more for first followers, while giving less for every next follower. Not sure how to implement it.
Another idea is to flipp it with Tithes so they will be "+1sci / +1faith" one and "+1gold / +1cult" another.

I think it's fine. You need 300 foreign followers to gain 50 culture/science per turn, which is like 2 civs and requires you to enhance and spread it to them. It's a solid boost, but hardly OP.

 

[ElliotS]

Sainthood and Tithe seem 100% worthless. Your own citizens don't count, and you need to compete with the AI for such a marginal benefit. Converting 300 foreign followers is an INSANE amount, and nets you 60 yields total. It's terrible.

I think we should remove the "foreign city" requirement so warmongers or progress civs can enjoy these, and because they're dog-crap now.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Sainthood and Tithe seem 100% worthless. Your own citizens don't count, and you need to compete with the AI for such a marginal benefit. Converting 300 foreign followers is an INSANE amount, and nets you 60 yields total. It's terrible.

I think we should remove the "foreign city" requirement so warmongers or progress civs can enjoy these, and because they're dog-crap now.

I agree. As they are currently, they feel like finding that line where they are useful is really tricky - if they "just" scaled on population following, regardless whose population that is, I think it could be easier to get a feel if they are going anywhere. Currently, either you get lucky and have no founders next to you/on your continent and can milk that for pretty easy victory; or by the time you'd pick them you really really don't want to because you're barely keeping your own cities in your own religion. (Granted, I think only Resilience and Zealotry might be of use if you're being swallowed under the tide of another religion.)

This change wouldn't directly change my slight concern of Sainthood runaways, but it would make it far more consistent if it was to happen (and it's not just my imagination).

 

[CrazyG]

I think it's fine. You need 300 foreign followers to gain 50 culture/science per turn, which is like 2 civs and requires you to enhance and spread it to them. It's a solid boost, but hardly OP.

I think we should remove the "foreign city" requirement so warmongers or progress civs can enjoy these, and because they're dog-crap now.

Sainthood is really good. That faith on great person expending is a big deal, if you pair it with to the glory of god and ceremonial burial you can get a really powerful great person loop. The science and culture can be really powerful for a small empire as well, if you manage to convert one neighbor and a few city states you will pull a decent chunk of science and culture. Its not meant for a warmonger, its meant for tall empires.

Tithe IDK about. I liked tithe more when it was just 200 gold the first time for each city, not dependant on the number of followers, because that was a solid early game boost. I guess in theory the current version could snowball to a stupid extent the way apostolic tradition does, but it just seems crappy against pacifism or evangelism. Honestly though pacifism makes pretty much everything look bad

 

[ElliotS]

one neighbor and a few city states you will pull a decent chunk of science and culture

i doubt that tops 200 followers even well into renessance, which would be a measly 20 science and culture. That's worthless.

The only part is the faith from great people, but that means it's an insanely niche belief good in only one strategy. Why not nerf the faith from great people and buff the other part? "Making it 1 / per 10 or 8 followers, and 50 faith from expending great people scaling with era" would make it useful in more situations.

 

[CrazyG]

i doubt that tops 200 followers even well into renessance, which would be a measly 20 science and culture. That's worthless.

The only part is the faith from great people, but that means it's an insanely niche belief good in only one strategy. Why not nerf the faith from great people and buff the other part? "Making it 1 / per 10 or 8 followers, and 50 faith from expending great people scaling with era" would make it useful in more situations.

When did great person spam become "insanely niche"? Maybe you don't use it often, but I certainly do and I doubt I'm the only one. This sounds a lot like you wanting to buff a strategy you enjoy playing just because you like playing it, while hurting a strategy you don't use often. The current version is my go to for Korea, India, Arabia, and others. None of them have a good backup enhancer, if sainthood goes first I'm often forced into taking zealotry or pacifism and only building like 4 relevant units with those beliefs.

If there's a problem with enhancer beliefs, I think its with weak options like resilience (which apparently might not even be working correctly), or pacifism being so strong

 

[ElliotS]

When did great person spam become "insanely niche"? Maybe you don't use it often, but I certainly do and I doubt I'm the only one. This sounds a lot like you wanting to buff a strategy you enjoy playing just because you like playing it, while hurting a strategy you don't use often. The current version is my go to for Korea, India, Arabia, and others. None of them have a good backup enhancer, if sainthood goes first I'm often forced into taking zealotry or pacifism and only building like 4 relevant units with those beliefs.

If there's a problem with enhancer beliefs, I think its with weak options like resilience (which apparently might not even be working correctly) or pacifism

It just seems weird to stick such a negligible bonus onto the great person faith. I mean most games we're talking about 30 or less science and culture even late game.

How would you feel about splitting the effects so sainthood was "Gain 100 when you expend a great person, scaling with era. +1% Great Person Generation for every 10 followers of your religion in foreign cities." (Or a flat +15-20% if that's too hard to code.)

And then making Resilience "If the majority religion in a city, rival inquisitors and Prophets reduce your Religion's influence by 75%. (Instead of eliminating it.) +1 / for every 10 followers of your religion."

And then give Pacifism "Great Prophets, Missionaries and Inquisitors cost 30% less faith. Holy city owner gains +1 for every 6 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities."

And Finally change Tithe to be any followers of your religion. It's just useless right now.

Edit: Whoops didn't notice that you mentioned pacifism was strong. Misread and thought you said it was weak. I NEVER use it because I'm allergic to not stabbing people.

 

[CrazyG]

It just seems weird to stick such a negligible bonus onto the great person faith. I mean most games we're talking about 30 or less science and culture even late game.

30 science or culture isn't worthless though. Its probably worthless to a massive empire but not the 4 city tradition play. Would that great person rate be stronger? Sure, but it doesn't need a buff

And then give Pacifism "Great Prophets, Missionaries and Inquisitors cost 30% less faith. Holy city owner gains +1 for every 6 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities."

You want to buff Pacifism??????????

 

[Owlbebach]

Not sure about Sainthood, but Tithes seems very good to me. So good that me and my friend agreed not to take it when we play together. Gold for converting cities is a lot, it greatly boosts your production. I never had problems with spreading my religion on 1-2 neighbours, even considering we play with 1 additional religion on the map compared to standard

 

[ElliotS]

30 science or culture isn't worthless though. Its probably worthless to a massive empire but not the 4 city tradition play. Would that great person rate be stronger? Sure, but it doesn't need a buff


You want to buff Pacifism??????????

As it is I feel like the only useful enhancers for wide when not swimming in unhappiness are Zealotry, Scripture and Ritual, and all of those can be useful for tall.

It's a really, really lacking in options for wide play, especially if you don't want Scripture or Ritual.

Whoops didn't notice that you mentioned pacifism was strong. Misread and thought you said it was weak. I NEVER use it because I'm allergic to not stabbing people.

 

[ElliotS]

Not sure about Sainthood, but Tithes seems very good to me. So good that me and my friend agreed not to take it when we play together. Gold for converting cities is a lot, it greatly boosts your production. I never had problems with spreading my religion on 1-2 neighbours, even considering we play with 1 additional religion on the map compared to standard

Dude look at the numbers. If you have 300 foreign follows (which would be an insane number Renaissance) you get 37 gold and faith from it. That's during a time where I'm typically making 100-200 gold per turn, and much more gross.

The gold comes late, past when gold is normally a problem, and is a piddly amount.

I don't see how you could ever justify taking it over Zealotry which gives you many times the amount of gold in free units, among other benefits.

 

[tu_79]

Hey, I believe most people that complained about Resilience not working was trying India, for a reason. If you want to save on faith points to use them for something else, resilience is the way to go, specially when you have an edge at passive spreading. But we can't say how good it is, for it seems not to be working. I couldn't say, because I spent lots of Prophets spreading, so the struggling took place outside my empire.

What I mean is that resilience is not that bad (if it works), provided you have another thing to spend faith points in. Even if it is too niche (trading civs and India).

 

[CrazyG]

As it is I feel like the only useful enhancers for wide when not swimming in unhappiness are Zealotry, Scripture and Ritual, and all of those can be useful for tall.

It's a really, really lacking in options for wide play, especially if you don't want Scripture or Ritual.

Whoops didn't notice that you mentioned pacifism was strong. Misread and thought you said it was weak. I NEVER use it because I'm allergic to not stabbing people.

I phrased that sentance poorly. Pacifism is extremely good just for the missionary discount. Even if the only happiness you get is from vassals or city states it can be a huge amount (you can easily pull 5 from just city states).

Generally I'd say that zealotry, pacifism, and clericalism are much better options for wide play than tall play. But even if you are right, and wide only has 3 useful enhancers, I don't think changing sainthood for wide is the right way to go. Enhancers just aren't that strong, zealotry can be amazing but there are many powerful ways to spend faith and you can't do them all. For example if you take Jesuit education and zealotry they both become weaker

 

[ElliotS]

I phrased that sentance poorly. Pacifism is extremely good just for the missionary discount. Even if the only happiness you get is from vassals or city states it can be a huge amount (you can easily pull 5 from just city states).

Generally I'd say that zealotry, pacifism, and clericalism are much better options for wide play than tall play. But even if you are right, and wide only has 3 useful enhancers, I don't think changing sainthood for wide is the right way to go. Enhancers just aren't that strong, zealotry can be amazing but there are many powerful ways to spend faith and you can't do them all. For example if you take Jesuit education and zealotry they both become weaker

That's why I think we should keep sainthood tall with "Gain 100 when you expend a great person, scaling with era. +1% Great Person Generation for every 10 followers of your religion in foreign cities." (Or a flat +15-20% if that's too hard to code.)

and make Resilience "If the majority religion in a city, rival inquisitors and Prophets reduce your Religion's influence by 75%. (Instead of eliminating it.) +1 / for every 10 followers of your religion."

Resilience has seemingly only been used by India, and now might be OP with them (75% Great Prophet discount?) but is terrible with everyone else it seems. I think a rework could be good here.

Isn't that the best for both worlds?

 

[CrazyG]

That's why I think we should keep sainthood tall with "Gain 100 when you expend a great person, scaling with era. +1% Great Person Generation for every 10 followers of your religion in foreign cities." (Or a flat +15-20% if that's too hard to code.)

and make Resilience "If the majority religion in a city, rival inquisitors and Prophets reduce your Religion's influence by 75%. (Instead of eliminating it.) +1 / for every 10 followers of your religion."

Resilience has seemingly only been used by India, and now might be OP with them (75% Great Prophet discount?) but is terrible with everyone else it seems. I think a rework could be good here.

Isn't that the best for both worlds?

Well its been reported that the 75% part of resilience doesn't actually work. I'd rather keep Sainthood as / for foreign followers rather than +1% . The bonus is in the holy city so you can hit it with multipliers, its significant.

"+1 / for every 10 followers of your religion" isn't very enhancerish. The enhancers make it easier to spread to foreign cities, reward spreading to foreign cities, or do something with faith. If you aren't planning on spreading to foreign cities, your best options are zealotry or sainthood. Clericalism and pacifism are still decent options, even if you barely use the benefits. Enhancers are weak for certain strategies, its not a balance problem its how they were designed.

IDK if the prophet discount is OP for India, it depends on how it stacks.

 

[ElliotS]

Well its been reported that the 75% part of resilience doesn't actually work. I'd rather keep Sainthood as / for foreign followers rather than +1% . The bonus is in the holy city so you can hit it with multipliers, its significant.

"+1 / for every 10 followers of your religion" isn't very enhancerish. The enhancers make it easier to spread to foreign cities, reward spreading to foreign cities, or do something with faith. If you aren't planning on spreading to foreign cities, your best options are zealotry or sainthood. Clericalism and pacifism are still decent options, even if you barely use the benefits. Enhancers are weak for certain strategies, its not a balance problem its how they were designed.

IDK if the prophet discount is OP for India, it depends on how it stacks.

I think it's a serious problem when there's only two good options when you don't want to spread, and one of them is only useful for GP spam.

Even if the current Sainthood is fine for that strategy, I'd rather make more options for cases that have only one or two.

Also followers of your religion is very enhancerish. Clericalism and Zealotry both care about your cities. Resilience doesn't care about spreading at all. It's not like foreign followers wouldn't count, so it still rewards spreading too.

 

[CrazyG]

I think it's a serious problem when there's only two good options when you don't want to spread, and one of them is only useful for GP spam.

I don't think its a serious problem at all. There are only 9 enhancers, 2 of which have zero reason to spread (zealotry and resilience), Clericalism is decent even if you only have a couple CS or cities following. Pacifism is good even if it provides 0 happiness, and if you spread just to a vassal or a few CS its worth a significant amount of happiness. And then there's sainthood.

I guess if you aren't buying missionaries or inquisitors or great prophets, or military units with faith, and you don't want happiness, and you aren't pursing city states, and you aren't producing many great people, and you aren't spreading with pressure, but at this point what are you doing?

Can you give an example of a game where you couldn't get a useful enhancer?

 

[ElliotS]

I don't think its a serious problem at all. There are only 9 enhancers, 2 of which have zero reason to spread (zealotry and resilience), Clericalism is decent even if you only have a couple CS or cities following. Pacifism is good even if it provides 0 happiness, and if you spread just to a vassal or a few CS its worth a significant amount of happiness. And then there's sainthood.

I guess if you aren't buying missionaries or inquisitors or great prophets, or military units with faith, and you don't want happiness, and you aren't pursing city states, and you aren't producing many great people, and you aren't spreading with pressure, but at this point what are you doing?

Can you give an example of a game where you couldn't get a useful enhancer?

Every time zealotry is taken and I have beliefs like Diligence and Thrift that I don't want to give the AI. At that point my only option is Clericalism, and if I'm good on happiness then it's pretty crap.

It happens all the time. Plus the fact is that I need to choose Zealotry or Clericalism every time because I have no other options if I don't want to spread. It's not good, especially when we have weak and broken enhancers that could be changed.