Tupac05 - A Classic Replayed

[Vind2]

Ack time zone differance I slept through all of this :/ Also i think if a city is next to irrigation/(maybe river) you can irrigate from it. I'm gonna play a quick Regent on Vanilla to get used to the differances.

 

[markh]

ok, it starts

0) 4000BC : worker goes NW, setter NE
the worker reveals another BG, so NW it will be

IBT : nothing

1) 3950BC : settler W, worker S on grass cow

IBT : nothing

2) 3900BC : found Berlin and we will have spices in the W after palace expansion. How nice !
There is a hut right out of range of Berlin.
worker irrigates the cow
research is set to pottery

IBT : nothing

3) 3850BC : zzz

IBT : nada

4) 3800BC : zzz

IBT : -

5) 3750BC : zzz

IBT : -

6) 3700BC : irrigation is done, roading

IBT : -

7) 3650BC : zzz

IBT : Berlin completes worker -> warrior

8) 3600BC : zzz

IBT : -

9) 3550BC : workers move to the plains cow, there is a scout in the mountains

IBT : -

10) 3500BC : workers start irrigating

IBT : we get a palace expansion and the hut teaches us ceremonial burial
we have much jungle and mountains around

11) 3450BC : zzz

IBT : -

12) 3400BC : workers road the plain cow

IBT : Catherine steps up and offers us pottery for warrior code straight
I take it, but I also want all her gold, so she gives us additional 10 gold
Research is set to IW in 36, horses are quite unlikely in our surroundings
Berlin completes a warrior -> warrior

13) 3350BC : move the warrior out of Berlin, adjust lux to 20%

IBT : -

14) 3300BC : workers move to BG

IBT : -

15) 3250BC : workers start to mine

IBT : Berlin completes warrior -> warrior

16) 3200BC : zzz

IBT : -

17) 3150BC : lux up to 30%

IBT : Berlin complets warrior -> settler

18) 3100BC : lux down to 10%

IBT : -

19) 3050BC : zzz

IBT : -

20) 3000BC : zzz

IBT : -

21) 2950BC : lux up 20% as Berlin grew

IBT : -

22) 2900BC : zzz

IBT : Berlin : settler -> granary

23) 2850BC : zzz

IBT : -

24) 2800BC : zzz

IBT : -

25) 2750BC : adjust lux due to growth of Berlin

IBT : -

26) 2710BC : found Leipzig -> warrior

IBT : a red warrior appears from NE

27) 2670BC : zzz

IBT : one of our scouting warrior defeats two barbs and promotes vet

28) 2630BC : zzz

IBT : -

29) 2590BC : adjust lux

IBT : -

30) 2550BC : zzz

IBT : Leipzig : warrior -> worker

31) 2510BC : zzz

IBT : Berlin : granary -> warrior

32) 2470BC : zzz

IBT : Berlin : warrior -> settler

33) 2430BC : zzz

IBT : -

34) 2390BC : zzz

IBT : -

35) 2350BC : adjust lux

IBT : -

36) 2310BC : zzz

IBT : Berlin : settler -> settler
Leipzig : worker -> rax

37) 2270BC : zzz

IBT : IW comes in -> alphabet
we have iron S of Berlin

38) 2230BC : zzz

IBT : Tokugawa appears and offers Mysticism for IW. Itake Alphabet, The Wheel and all his gold (34) instead
he is up myst and masonry

39) 2190BC : found Hamburg -> warrior

IBT : -

40) 2150BC : zzz

Hm, not very satisfied with my set. It will take a long time to get the core up and running with all this jungle and mountains. The AIs are very far away as it seems. In the West there is incense in the East we have some dyes.

A pic and the save.

 

[Empiremaker]

Nice job.

Couple (more) questions:

Are we doing RCP?
Do we have a 4 turner in Berlin?
Who's red-Toku?-If so, we have Monty as well.
Do we want to move the pink dot SW so its on the coast.
Shouldn't we hook up the spcies so we can reduce lux tax?
Do we really need a barracks this early?

We'll need workers-lots and lots and lots of workers. :whip:

 

[Vind2]

Nice job.

Couple (more) questions:

Are we doing RCP?
Do we have a 4 turner in Berlin?
Who's red-Toku?-If so, we have Monty as well.
Do we want to move the pink dot SW so its on the coast.
Shouldn't we hook up the spcies so we can reduce lux tax?
Do we really need a barracks this early?

We'll need workers-lots and lots and lots of workers. :whip:

Does RCP work in vanilla? How exactly does a 4 turn SF work? I think I know but I'm not sure. Is it Settler-> Warrior(4 turns)-> Settler?

I'm gonna wait for more feed-back until I start.

 

[JJJSpider]

All that Jungle I am missing the Industrious trait now.

Oh Yes RCP works for Vanilla. Looks like Mark set us up as RCP-3.

Yes a Four turner is possible out of Berlin.
I think it will work like this.
Size 4: 6spt 5fpt
Size 5: 6spt 5fpt
Size 6: 7spt 5fpt
Size 7: 7spt 5fpt
As long as you get the extra Citizen working a Shield tile on Growth. MM ever turn so that does happen. Someone may correct me if I am wrong here.

I also agree with Empiremaker that the Pink dot on the coast may be better.

 

[Vind2]

Found this to help clear things up.

 

[tupaclives]

Here's my take on the situation.

First of all we have a good start, but the RCP has been messed up. If we want to go with RCP (I'm assuming we are) then we need to whip Hamburg (its currently RCP 4, with Leipzig RCP 3 so Hamburg is 2nd ring) to produce a settler and move it 2NE (i've got the right direction this time ). I favour moving the pink dot to the coast, its still on the river but will be a huge commerce producer in future, the downside is it won't be able to use all those mountains in the IA. However I'll make up a dotmap which shows how we future cities mean we can still use all those mountain tiles for a few powerhouses.

I'm in favour of our 2nd ring being RCP6.

Notes on the turnset:
A solid start, our settler factory is up and running and on Emperor we should be able to flood the land with settlers. Good work with the trading too, I was a bit worried we'd be behind already but you did very well there.

Roster

Markh - just played
vind2 - UP
tupaclives - On deck
JJJSpider
Empiremaker

 

[tupaclives]

Here's the dotmap I've drawn up, bear in mind its only provisional. Its made on the assumption that we whip-move Hamburg, the white dot represents the whip-move location.

My settling priorities would be (with Hamburg whip-moving for the white dot, so not including it, this is the suggested settling priority for settlers coming out of Berlin)
Pink
Blue
Purple
Green
Red
Tan
Yellow

That then has our core established, there are spots for 2 cities, I believe, at RCP6 past the pink dot who can make use of those mountains later on (when we get into Monarchy).

What are people's thoughts on the Great Library. Given our poor shield start (other than Berlin) I'm tempted to forgo it, maybe even look to capture it, as although its only emperor without the ability to trade very often it could be difficult to stay within touching distance. Although if properly improved, the blue dot could get the shields to have a crack at the GL.
I think we are in agreement that Monarchy is the best government for us.
I haven't looked in enough detail but I think once the workers finish on that BG, Berlin will be able to go warrior-->settler in its 4-turn cycle. Don't hold me to it I haven't run the figures but I think if we run it from size 5 (when this settler finishes) we are on 10spt if that extra mined BG comes along, giving us warrior in turn 1 of the cycle, we then go settler which at 10spt will take 3 turns, we get growth in the turn after worker finishes then settler in 2, growth in 2 then rinse and repeat. Could be good that way so that we get escorts and MP for the settlers, Markh already reported barbs about so they could be on raging...

anyway good luck vind2!

 

[markh]

@vind2 : The settler factory in Berlin is running. You need to manage it a bit. IIRC on turn 3 you have to change tiles to reduce the shields, otherwise the settler will complete before Berlin would be about to grow to size 7. The settler should complete like you see in the picture. Berlin would grow to 7 next IBT if the settler would not complete. Berlin should only build settlers, no other units. There is much land to settle, so it will run for a long time.

Keep an eye on the lux. When the settler is built you can reduce lux, but when growing you need to higher it again.

Spices can be hooked up now. My priority was to improve the tiles for Berlin to get the SF up and running. BTW we need more workers.

I built a rax in Leipzig as this town should be building units only and I do not like regulars. We need escort for the settlers and the variant could get us into war any time. Luckily Russia and Japan are quite far away, so we have not an immediate pressure, but better to be prepared.

The barbs I got were popped from a hut. It was far away, so I tried it. Apart from that I did not see any barbs.

I would have put another city 3SW of Hamburg, but I think tupac's dotmap is better than mine.

 

[markh]

Regarding the Great Lib I am not sure whether we should try it. I am not a big fan of it on emperor. We will be at war anyhow and after taking 1 or 2 cities usually the AI begs for peace and often offers techs. If we really hurt them they give almost everything for peace. I would concentrate on building up the core and a good army. Then go and whack some AI. If we get a leader and we can build the Great Lib this would be an option, but I think I would not try to build it brick by brick. These shields could be invested in a better way. Seeing the map we will have a huge empire and if the techpace will not be too fast we could do ok.

 

[Vind2]

IBT- zzz

turn1- Move settler towards pink dot. See someone dark green (Aztecs?)

IBT- See an american scout

Turn2- Found Konigsburg

IBT- America initiates diplo.

Turn3- zzz

IBT- zzz

Turn4- I think i got the settler factory right

IBT-

We are now at war with the Russians.

Turn5- Spices to be roaded.

IBT- Little russian scout in our lands

Turn 6- Barracks and warrior

IBT- Lepzig has disease.

Turn 7- Found Franfurt finish road to spices (adjust lux)

IBT- Nothing

Turn 8- Hamburg builds warrrior Another Settler from Berlin.

IBT- zzz

Turn 9- Move settler towards blue dot.

IBT- Japs and Americans building Oracle

Turn 10- Move settler. Roading second silk.

IBT- Our warrior sees a Russian one moving towards Konigsburg. Still far away though.

Turn 11- ZZz

IBT- Russia warrior attacks ours we win and promotes vet.

Turn 12- Fortify Warrior. Found Munich. Road Iron.

IBT- 2 more Russia warriors headed towards us

Turn 13- New settler.

IBT- Warriors move onto mountians. (Stay there) We see indians.

Turn 14- zzz

IBT- Russians are building the GL. trade with india.

Turn 15- ZZZ

IBT- zzz

Turn 16- Leapzig, Konigsburg produce Archer. Settler. Found Heidelburg. Pillage infierior Russian raods.

IBT- Zzz

Turn 17- Move our warrior towards russian city.

IBT- zzz

Turn 18- Move warrior, i see a russian archer.

IBT- Archer Attacks, warrior wins 3/4

Turn 19- zzz move our warrior to pillage Ivory. See 2 Russian warriors.

IBT- Russian Warrior kills ours.

Turn 20- Build a settler, Found Nuremburg.


Summary- We've met the Indians, Americans, Russians, Japs and Aztecs. Aztecs didn't feel like taking so no trading w/ them. Did some trading with others when possible. I got the settler factory right. Russia demanded contacts, I said 'no'. We are now at war with the Russians. I might have mixed up something up in one or to turns. Wasn't sure what a Whip-move was so I left it alone. We are building our troops.
An Oportunity.

Just the world

Note- Some Pictures aren't from the same turn they were posted.

 

[Vind2]

Here's the save.
View attachment Tupac05_1450BC.SAV

 

[tupaclives]

Ok looks like a good set, I might be able to start tonight but I have bar course from 4 till 8pm so I probably won't have time to finish it.
A whip-move is when you have a city in the wrong location, so when it grows to size 2, and has 10 shields in the box, you can whip for 1 pop. This drops the size down to 1 and if you freeze growth then in the interturn it will try and build the settler but you get the message no growth so delay, zoom or abandon. You pick abandon and you get a settler. The only downside of this is that the whip unhappiness transfers to the nearest city. Are we on warrior-->settler 4 turn cycle or just settler?

consider this a got-it

 

[tupaclives]

OK first of all we are running 20% lux tax when we can run at 0%, make sure you check things like that, thats 20% of our income being wasted for I- don't-know-how-long.
Next, why are we researching Map Making? We seem to have a lot of beakers invested into somethign the AI always goes for, thus probably no trade options. We have no need of galleys in the short term and it neglects research toward maths for catapults (vital in AW situations, which ours could be) and toward Monarchy so we can get out of despo? Did it automatically go to Map Making and you just left it, or did you actually choose Map Making? If the former why didn't you change it? If the latter why did you choose it, I see no benefit of it.
Third we should not have connected iron yet. We have most of our cities on 2-3 spt so swords take 10-15 turns. If we'd let warriors build instead (in 4-5 turns) we could then upgrade them, plus we can only build spears for MP now. This is bad.
I'm not sure why we are working the settler factory as we are, there is no need to work 2 unimproved tiles instead of the mined and roaded BG. The shield difference will not make the settler complete earlier and it adds more commerce. At this stage of the game Micro-Managing is not difficult as there so few cities, just by Micro-managing the cities the time for Map Making drops by 2 turns with no change to shield production, food production or the science slider and thats after i've whipped the settler for moving Hamburg thus losign 2 citizens.

note this post is not to critisize, but rather so that we are thinking on the same wavelength and to prompt disussion.
Does anyone have any suggestions about those dyes?
I'll do a fuller assesment when I start my turns...

 

[JJJSpider]

The Dyes are really surounded by jungle and not very close. Which means a lot of Worker turns just to get it hooked up. Overall Not worried about them at all.
It looks like there is Some Incense outside of Nuermberg. I could be Wrong the picture a little blurry in that area. If there is I like it more then the dyes

However, I do love AI denial.
So Poping down a settler in that area might be an idea but defending it will be very difficult. No Cats will be able to get there with out improvements. I more inclined to let the AI have it and take later. Who knows they may have improved the area by then.

 

[Ansar]

lurker's comment: Yeouch, thats horrible terrain.

 

[Vind2]

I guess I still have alot to learn. I was going for map making so AI would want to trade maps more and talk more. there are alot of new stradgies for me to learn, and I'm fairly inexpirianced with MMing.. Hopefully by the end of this SG I wioll have learned enough to tackle Demi_god

 

[tupaclives]

Hmmm, I hadn't thought of that (ai's wanting to trade maps) thats actually quite clever. That's the great thing about SG's you get exposed to new ideas and new ways of thinking. Thats thinking outside the square, I'll leave research on Map Making but speed it up (as we can reduce the lux slider with the war happiness).
MM can seem daunting at first but its really just a case of assessing the tiles available and doing some short maths. whenever your turnset comes around try mm cities at the start of your turn (although some will already be fully mm'ed) and at the end of your turn. I do it every turn but thats too much for a lot of people so try doing it at the start and end of your turnset, particularly at this stage when there are so few cities.

 

[Empiremaker]

I'm sorry, but I'm having large techincal difficulties with Civ 3 that will take a while to sort out. So, I'm forced to drop out.

Good Luck!

 

[Vind2]

I'm sorry to hear that.