Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by tupaclives, Mar 2, 2011.
Let's just play out the roster as it stands
CKS - up
Del62 - on deck
Alright. I've got the save. I hope to make some plans tomorrow.
I know it feels painfully slow, but take your time. We want to make sure that all of our moves from here on in are well calculated and in coordination with an overall plan. Do we have any consensus yet on how we are going to manage this? (peace, or continue war to keep them mobilised?)
The choice on whether or not to make peace was based on whether or not we can or should prevend them to build more bombers and generate more culture. It can't be decided based on the information in this turn.
Okay, I've played a little bit, and we have some things to discuss.
First, Portugal isn't mobilized, as Daeron's screenshot of Sagres shows them building a hydro plant, and the shields in Vilcas, which is building a tank, work out for having a factory and coal plant, but not being mobilized.
Between Daeron's screenshot and my investigation of Vilcas the Portuguese hooked up iron. If we can disconnect this again, they can't rail in areas where we have pillaged.
We lost 13 units killing their landing party. Their second landing was much smaller and on grass, and it was killed with no losses.
I made peace with Babylon and traded espionage plus 150 g for ironclads.
We lost another army in Portugal to bombers. I got an army to Daeron's suspected oil tile, and pillaged it. Oil disappeared from Vilcas's resource box.
So, we know where the oil is. It has been pillaged, but they have 15 bombers, plus possibly some bombers in production. Our only ways to get rid of the bombers are with flaks, ray22's trick, or bombarding them in cities (I think; I'm pretty sure I've lost bombers this way).
I think we should make peace and get an RoP so our armies can stay near the oil and other resources we'll want to pillage when they re-declare on us. Then steal our way to flight as rapidly as possible while building up some military.
We could also try to settle open spaces on the island, to give us a base to work from there. I think the island and the northern portion of the continent, above the neck, will get us to domination. I don't know if this is a good idea or not.
I'm taking the peace deal. I'll get the rest of my turns finished in the next couple of days.
Sounds good to me CKS. Keeping the armies there for a quick re-pillage sounds like a plan. Just remember that under the rules we can't park our army on the spot during peace-time to prevent reconnection.
A few points to consider:
1) I would expect they will force you to remove your troops
2) they may have another source or two for oil that is not currently connect and you have not discovered as you have cut lots of roads and they have not covered all the lands in their fringe areas.
3) you had about 60 turns till they get to the culture limit.
4) the longer the game goes the more troops they will have and they will be modern units.
5) they are likely to have modern armor soon.
These are just off the top of my head, but probably not all. I would also want to get more artillery and would maybe squeeze in an upgrade evry turn of at least one cannon.
Cannons are not very reliable and have no range, while artillery are more versitile. Of course you need your cash for other things, so it is not easy to do. Good luck.
PS I should have added that I would not bet against them being in mob. I am not sure how the shield count should be done. If you look at a place like Sippar you see a hill with a mine and no rail.
That tile yields 5 shields, but should only get 3. This is a better town to use as it has no factory or plant. I am not sure why it has 5, rather than 4 for being in mob.
It looks like their culture has not gone up at the rate it should since the 1300AD save, but again it is not easy to tell. If they are in mob the cpt will of course rise, once the retrun to normal.
Last itme is builds. The War acad says that you may continue a peacetime build after mobilization. You cannot start any new non militry builds, once in mob. In summary it is not clear, if they are in mob or not. If I had played the last few turns just before war and just after it would be clear. Just going by the saves is iffy.
This is why we want an RoP.
Luckily they don't have all that many tiles of the correct terrain type, but this very well may be an issue for us. We'll want to get refining ASAP.
Yes, we can't wait very long. Unfortunately, our military situation is very poor. I'm upgrading and rushing a little bit before we start stealing, because we can't afford to go back to war yet, but we can't delay much either.
We have to take the time to upgrade our cannons. We had about 70, and our artillery situation will be a lot better when they are artillery proper. Cannons just don't hit infantry, TOWs, or tanks well.
The hydro plant in Sagres was started in 1320, though, which suggests they aren't mobilized. It only has one turn of production on it. I don't think any of the civs the Portuguese have been at war with, most definitely including us, have been worth mobilizing against.
Either way, though, the chances of us having enough time to win are small.
A hill with two extra shields is a hill with aluminum, it doesn't indicate mobilization. (It could be uranium if it has extra commerce, but I don't think the Portuguese have fission yet.)
Yeah it seems they are not in mob, probably they do have a resource that you cannot see, that makes sense. The culture is very hard to read with so much accumulated now that a small change goes undetected.
Very hard to come up with the gold at 120 per upgrade on cannons. Too bad one of the nations you knocked out did not have Leo and make it easier to handle to cost. You certainly have your work cut out.
You can get to about 1050gpt with maximum work on the towns. That will let you upgrade those rifles and do an immediate steal with the 2k you would get from tweaking the towns. I mean the steal attempt would be on the next turn after the tweaks.
Spoiler Turn 255 to t256 :
hide as large
Army pillages 3 tiles and lands on suspected oil tile, which is 5 tiles 33333 from the fish near Ollantaytambo.
Redlined army on mountain moves to mined hill and pillages it. Disband the army as it will die anyway and no reason to maybe give a promotion to a bomber or any unit.
Army pillages hill mine and 2 other irrigated plains in an attempt to move as far away from Coimbra as I can.
I would like to have a couple of units to stick in the coastal towns across from the old US towns. This is likely to be where some of the bombers are located and they will bomb the towns. If you had two or three units in those places the bombers would not destroy structures.
I do not know as I was not playing to see where bombers launched or attacked. I am guessing the redlined galleon means either a carrier is about or some bombers are in Coimbra. The reported loss of some armies from bomber attacks and the pillaged land in the NE points to beach towns in that area.
I do not know if the cities the armies are parked near have artillery or not. I moved the armies away from the coastal towns as those are the ones that are likely to have most of the bombers.
I can count 50 ships within 3 tiles of our land, 43 are in our waters. I do not know how many units are still to land.
Rifles 14 (at least one damaged)
cavs 43 (after disband one army and 20 of the 43 are in armies of which 2 armies still overseas)
swiss merc 2
Note that mdi and sm are not fit to attack the landers, even if they are redlined. They are best used to absort bombings.
In addition we have 10 artillery and 37 cannons. IMO cannons are of limited reliablity and the range 1 is a problem. It would be on my mind to upgrade at least one each turn, if I could spare the gold. Gold is needed for steals and maybe a rush or two, so it will be hard to accomplish.
My own feeling is cannons are about a 45% to hit and the rate of fire of 1 means only 1hp removed. Artillery have the bombardment of 12 vs 8 and range 2 and rate of 2. This means they will at times take off more than 1HP. In practice artillery hit at very high percentage and I have had them go 100% many times.
This is much lower, IF you shoot at targets on a hill or mountain or in towns with only 1 unit. To that end I would be very unhappy with the turn player that did not block hills and mountains and force a landing on grass. Bombardments will fail at a greater rate.
As to dealing with the landing. Well the way most would go would be to use the bombardment, then the 3 armies, then the 23 cavs. Then you are faced with using rifles and other 4 attack units, while holding the 3 infantry or maybe using them.
You may well manage to do this and it was reported that it was done with only 13 losses, implying a quite good run of bombarding. If you get something like a low number of hits like 13, you do much worse.
I would probably not take this risk. I would maybe do something like take a pop of the hill in Holwerd and move it to the coastal tile. Take the taxman and put it on that hill. This stop starving and lower the army a turn.
It now means I am not forced to fight to the death to defeat that stack. I can use my armies to block in the stack. I may even use 1 or more to attack any damaged units. I mean I give up the hill to pillage, but once I clear it that can be fix. I bombard and see how it goes and maybe attack with the cavs and take some losses.
Move my defenders into Amsterdam. One army on the mountain and let them attack Amsterdam or move towards Holwerd.
They have no BattleField, so they will not heal. I would expect them to not attack Amsterdam, but they could. I would not expect a pillage by the tanks as they will try to get close to the empty Holwerd.
Next turn I will get to bombard again and now face units with 1 or 2HP and a lot less with 3 and 4. If I get the 13-18 hits I would see nearly all units with at least 3HP and be very painful to attack with cavs. All have 8 defense, except the two sam units and they have 6.
That is the same as a rifle, not a lot of fun for cavs, but doable. Infantry at 3 or 4HP are very tough on cavs.
Even cav armies can struggle with aninfantry in a town/hill. Here they would not have a full bonus, but would have a hill. Either tactic could work or could fail, the difference is that the second option will save units, if it does work.
Since I have no idea when the wars started and the gov is Republic I make a peace deal with Hammi. I did not know who declared, but not likely they did.
Turn off many animations and turn on color blind as it makes it easier to see nation in a 31 color palette. IOW std colors are not on the normal civs and it is a bugger in screen shots to know the nation.
New Holwerd make taxman out of a pop on a hill and sell the wall. If they get to this town all is lost anyway.
Utrecht 2 switch to Expl, then wealth as no need for settlers from now on, going to rasie all and not repalce any.
Already have 2 settlers on hand. I am just going to say wealth, even in the places it is expl then wealth to save me work. If they have 15 or more shields it is an explorer. Those will be move to a town to disband.
New The Hague switch to wealth from artillery in 63 as it will be too late and will not have cash to rush anytime soon.
Rotterdam 2 > wealth from settler.
Holwerd 2 the same.
New Haarlem > wealth from arty.
New Maastricht > aqua and swap taxman to CE to go from 20 turns to 7.
New Hilversum forget if this was on wealth or not, is now. Pop from mountain to tax.
New Eindhoven > aqua and taxman to CE.
Leerdam2 aqua to wealth as it is only size 4 and needed 39 turns.
Dordrecht 2 switch arty to ironclad.
Nampo art to iron, but may go to wealth as cannot use CE or Police to gain shields here.
New Den Helder 2 > aqua and use 1 CE.
Hyangsan > wealth was making a worker? What? Going to add in all native workers that come free after this turn. Do not need many here and will have slaves galore over there or be dead.
Gouda 2 > wealth. Aqua was not useful here.
New Tilburg > wealth.
Amsterdam 2 > wealth and move 1 pop to tax.
New Zwolle > wealth.
New Arnhem 2 > wealth.
New Delft > wealth and sell walls.
New Enschede > wealth, was making a 100 turn market?
Leerdam sell lib. > wealth from market as it has no land tiles to use and only 5 coastal tiles, which probably will be needed by other towns nearby. It will just get specialist from any growth. At least it had exactly 20 shields, the cost of an explorer. Switch cops to tax.
Zwolle2 > wealth.
New Amsterdam aqua to wealth. It does nothing to help as you only have 15 food at size 6. That means 1 free pop and all are 3 food tiles, so 1 specialist. You can have that without the aqua. No availale land tiles and no harbor so no gain from working water tiles, even with a harbor. Each will only feed itself. Corruption would eat the gold.
Roosendal frigate was 23 turns iirc with 2 cops. Granary is the same 60 shields, switch and then flip the cops to CE and get it in 12 turns. Now that was just an example as we really want an Ironclad we need 90 shield item so I pick a market at 100. The trick is to not forget to switch back at the right time. I use F1 and sort on production so each turn I jsut look at F1 and see what is going down.
Lauwersoog sell wall and temple. It is another all palins and coast towns, so flip 2 pop to tax.
Maastricht sell wall, it is size 12. Sell temple and granary. Not going to be making any settlers or workers.
Sell Lib and lose 54 shields switching cath to infantry.
Need to go back aroudn and find lib/unis to sell as well as temples. No more research, not going to make up the culture by hand, do it by killing.
Harlingen sell wall and switch settler to wealth.
Middelburg sell lib and temple. Have to think about the factory. It will take 12 turns and then need a plant. For now I flip the joker to CE and cut it to 11 turns.
Taejon sell lib and harboe, no one is working water and no growth.
Note not listing towns where I just do nothing or sell of structures.
Note need to take an overview of shipbuilding. I am not a fan of trying to battle the AI on sid at sea. 40% for boats is too expensive for my taste. I just ping them and sink what I can, when I can and rely on taking their towns to stop the ships. A few well placed boats to kill of the redlined ones will do for me as a rule.
Den Helder flip pop from mined hill at 4 shields to a CE and go from 39 turns to 26.
Gouda pop on hill go to tax.
Dordrecht pop from mountain to tax.
lingen > wealth.
New Lauwersoog > wealth.
The Hague 2 switch from wealth to aqua and move pop from mountian to CE, so free aqua in 17.
Groningen 2 arty > wealth.
Eindhoven 2 same. Whoops moved pop from mountain to grass.
Note must now monitor each turn for growth to look for flips to tax or growth. AI will want to put new citizen on mountain here. Other places to work, when I want specialist.
Arnhem 2 arty > wealth.
Middleburg 2 art > W(ealth).
Delft 2 arty > W.
Breda 2 arty > W.
Leiden 2 arty > W.
Den Helder 2 arty > W.
Lauwersoog 2 arty > W.
Enschede 2 arty > W. pop from hill to grass.
Tillburg 2 crt > W. I am not a big fan of courts. This place makes 4 gold, it may more or less break even or may a buck, but it will take too long and I would rather just up my gold with specialist I can have now. Will irrigate the mine.
New Amsterdam 2 frigate to W.
New The Hgue 2 same and flip pop to tax.
New Utrecht 2 flip pop to CE and save 20 turns on aqua.
New Haarlem 2 arty > W.
New Delft 2 same.
New Leiden 2 same and pop to tax.
New Harlingen 2 same.
New Lauwersoog 2 same.
New Tilburg 2 same.
New Zwolle 2 same and flip a pop to CE.
New Gouda 2 same.
New Leerdam 2 settler > W.
New Hilversum 2 setler > W and pop to tax.
Rotterdam 3 flip pop to CE to speed aqua.
New Eindhoven 2 arty > W.
Taking a look at the ships being built now and realize there is a problem with the lack of armies and infantry.
cannot send over 4x armis until transports. We have only 3 inf and iirc 14 rifles now. 8 galleons, with 1 redlined and in range of bombers. I moved it, but it is still in range. Six also in range,but not enough bombers to sink them yet.
I now see Nampo is making a boat, but has no access to the sea. That may have been my doing as I would not realize
it was land lock from the city view.
Den Helder has to be changed as it is not worth a market I see now.
New Enschede 2 switch the arty to W. The overview lets me see things in a different perspective than just a plain city view.
Making well over 1k now and the coffers have about 2100. The bad news is only making about 4 inf and not each turn. 1 army. 5 boats and most are long term builds. 1 arty. 1 cav. 4 factories, so will eventually get more builds. 1 placeholder.
Bombarment went better than expected, in spite of a string of 12 cannons missing. Went 8 of 10 on artillery and 15 of 37 cannons. A tad better than 40% for the cannons.
Move all 14 rifles into Amsterdam, even the 3/5. Move the 3 infantry in as well. Spend 420 to upgrade all manually so they can all stay fortified. Now wwe have 17 infantry in town, backed by 37 cannon and 10 arty. I consider moving one army to the mountian to open the hole for them to head out, but I am afraid the ships will bombard it to the point it willbe attacked. Normally they do not do anythign with escorts, but it is not 100%.
eCav kills a tank and I do no further attacks.
Better and worse than hoped. Better in few attacks on Amsterdam and no losses, one promotion. Worse as I had hope the one army in range wold not get hit by all bomber runs and hence destroyed by tanks. Many units moved to the mountain.
Most bombers came from the expected area and bombed the galleons.
Looks like about 6 troops landed, seemed like more.
The Hague starts a plant.
Use about 40 expl to disband and finish the army. Will use the rest for other builds to shave a turn off.
Check on all towns that grew.
Went for the immediate steal for 1800+ and got Corp.
I trade Khan for some junk techs and his 20 gold. The reason is that later I may be able to get an offer for better stuff or at least not see them in the list. Maybe even make it more expensive for Henry to bribe them into the war. We have all the MA techs now.
Looks like we picked up WW, not sure if it was do to making peace. I think not as it is not I think it would be worse than it is now in that case. Only was of the town had grown.
I guess they are not in Mob, still confusing. Only been one turn though.
No new bombers and no oil for now. He does have a marine.
26 cannons missed to drop below 40% and 3 arties missed, but did get a few 2HP reductions.
Bump lux to 30 and still have two towns to tweak.
Killed all the origianl landing party losing 5 cavs. A lot easier after two rounds of bombardment. The armies were red and one was 1HP. 4 infantry now on the mountain. Only 1 unit went elite and that was the infantry I had to attack with. Not one of the cavs got a promotion.
RoP is not a given, but it could be fatal for you if granted. You do not have the units to block them right now. If they were to land say 16 tanks or some number you cannot ask them to leave. They would be free to roam and at some point DOW and raze a lot of empty towns. Once you get around 6 armies, you could block them from moving.
Just an idea that may be outside of the spirit of the rules, but you can sit on the oil tile, till you have Refine. This could be allowed as technically you do not know you are sitting on their oil. You are only infering it.
Anyway I only played those two turns, so I have no knowledge that would be a spoiler afaik. Looking forward to seeing the next set posted.
Interesting play through vmxa, thanks for taking an interest. It certainly looks a tricky situation
Yup, tricky is a good way to say it. I was not following much recently as I was so tied up with League Of Legends, that I just skimmed the boards here, especially all the SG'as as they take more time to read compared to General.
You guys must have been doing well to even get to this point.
The reason we where at war with Babylon is we had a peace treaty with luxuries tied in and their capital moved,
I was not sure about making peace as I did not know who declared and if peace would cost war happiness to be lost. In the end it did not matter that much I figured, given being in Republic and the likelyhood that Hammi will probably DOW eventually.
I was thinking that it may be possible to get Hammi to the point that he may get a useful tech or a decent amount of gold as a bribe to MPP with Henry. I just cannot recall, if Henry has gold or how many techs Hammi needs to get to that point.
Here is the current situation. I haven't tried to steal anything yet, as we aren't yet in a situation to survive if Portugal declares on us.
Portugal is not mobilized; Sagres is building a hydro plant.
Interesting note: Portugal currently has no iron, so they can't rail after we pillage.
Possibility: make peace, make ROP, move armies to oil. Steal toward flight. When we get caught, pillage the oil.
Cavalry army is in the vicinity of the suspected 2nd oil supply. I think I need to get to it to pillage it. Then we'll know if it is the oil.
Let's start by taking on the huge stack.
Take vmxa's advice and make peace with Babylon, trading espionage and 150 g for ironclads.
Bombardment takes 31 hp off of stack.
Army 1 kills tank, infantry, infantry 5/18.
Army 2 kills infantry, infantry, infantry, tank 6/18
Army 3 kills infantry, infantry, infantry, infantry. 9/18.
Cav dies to mobile SAM 2/4
Cav dies to mobile SAM 1/4
Cav kills tank, promotes to 2/5
Cav dies, promotes tank to 3/5
Cav dies to tank 1/4
Cav 1/4 kills tank
Cav dies to tank 1/4
Cav 2/4 kills tank
Cav 4/4 kills tank
Cav dies to 3/4 tank
2nd cav dies to same tank, promoted to 4/5
3rd cav dies redlining the tank
Cav promotes to 3/5 killing tank
Cav dies to 2/5 tank
Cav dies to 1/5 tank
1/4 cav kills tank
4/4 cav kills 2/4 infantry
Cav dies promoting infantry to 2/5
Cav 1/4 kills infantry
Cav 2/4 kills infantry
Cav 1/4 kills infantry
Cav 3/4 kills tank
E cav dies to 2/5 tank
Cav 1/4 kills tank
Infantry 4/4 kills mobile sam
E* MDI 3/5 kills cav
E rifle dies, tank promotes to 2/5
Infantry 1/4 kills tank
E rifle 5/5 kills tank
Infantry 1/4 kills tank
Rifle 4/4 kills tank
3/5 rifle kills mobile SAM
Armies in Portugal pillage; one ends on the suspected oil tile. Lots of worker actions. A few workers split up to railroad seaside hills slowly.
Several port cities bombed; lose boats, barracks, population. Redlined army in Portugal is killed.
5 tanks and 1 infantry land south of Amsterdam
Bombard the attacking stack, kill infantry and 3 tanks with cav army. Kill tank with 2/5 rifle, kill tank with 4/4 cav.
Pillage the suspected oil by Vilcas and investigate; no oil in Vilcas, but there is iron. It is defended by 3 infantry.
Portugal will pay 460 g for peace. They will give us peace & the corporation for 460 gpt. Pillage and bombard some boats. Upgrade some cannons. Make peace with Portugal; they give 480 g. Trade them saltpeter for 57 gpt. Since they won't build anything that requires saltpeter, this is free money.
MM for cash with slow growth in most spots. Start temples using CE in locations where we need cultural expansions. Draft in cities that would grow except they are size 12.
IBT: Interesting! Babylon now has two cities. I think one flipped back to them.
Forestry operations and upgrading. Send settlers toward island. We need to get some of the open territory, I think.
Turn 4: Same as 3
IBT: The Portuguese take back Babylon's 2nd town.
Rush worker/colosseum in Amsterdam to short-rush army a bit - takes two turns off for 520 g.
Build two towns on island, start temples with CE. We'll need to rush them soon.
Continue forestry operations.
2 Elite rifles
38 cavalry, 2 elite, 16 vet, the rest in armies
20 infantry, some at 2 hp
1 elite Swiss Merc
6 armies, 5 cavs + one currently open.
Our military situation is dire. The Portuguese have more tanks than we have units. Amusingly, our power is supreme.
IBT: Babylon is killed.
Upgrade rest of cannons. We have nearly as many ground combat units as the Portuguese have tanks.
Turn 8: Continuing forestry operations. Settling some towns.
IBT: Portuguese start the UN.
Stopping here, as I won't have time to play this weekend.
For cities with 20 spt, short-rush cavs using a granary. For cities with 15-16 spt, short-rush infantry using a granary. For armies, rush a worker, then a colosseum, then switch to the army. There is no use using a bank, as it doesn't cut any turns off.
I put a couple of towns on the island, in hopes that we could get a foothold and that there wouldn't be too many troops there. I've seen a lot, though; when the town flipped back to Babylon, Portugal moved a bunch of units in.
Portugal has done very little work reconnecting the tiles we pillaged, and I don't understand why. It may just be because they have so few workers. In any case, they haven't connected the oil back up, and they still have only 13 bombers.
I took vmxa's warning about an ROP, but we may want to sign one soon. Portugal will pay us 3 gpt for one, and we may need to get our armies placed in important areas quickly.
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