Turn Discussion Thread

[HUSch]

Blub, I think your canal-town is better than Alphas, but also I would not move "Alpha A" west. For me the canal town is more a fort against land-units from center, than a needed "Panamacanal". With the towns at south and south-west coast we 've enough production for bulding the needed ships, and additional the usability from this canal is not like the original. Without the "pacific war" were more difficult. The gain is ~2 turns from Sirius to Gold. "Alpha A" has the sugar of 2 clams, even 1 of this is for the canal town. So when we found the canal town there is a fished clams for it.

Also I think had we waited on the hill we would have been able to keep the city on Mav Home island because the reinforcements would have allowed for it.

That, I don't think; against the cross, we had no real counter unit. And all their units 've 2 promotions, our only 1. How good are LAs against them; I don't know, I 'll/must test it.

The problem I see is that we want not win this war, but the game, so it's important to have after the war a chance for more. But perhaps ( and I consider it's more and more) this thinking is wrong. How see you this?
The last total DG-war (I saw) was in ISDG against LP and there was units and best promotions for this, no considering what's later. The towns were at pop 3-6 whip, and in the crusade all units were ready, all in the sense, after winning the war, we 've a good sitution for the rest and is the same how our towns are in this winning time. This is not right for us; here we discuss the war is won and we have Pyras and must make/get a good stand for an attack against the south. So we lead more a gentleman-war (if you understand my meaning), because we 've more "irons in the fire" ( that is translate from a german word) to win (and my interest in the game is not depend of victory).

 

[BLubmuz]

Waiting on the hill for reinforcements would be a suicide. Not that we did much better taking the city, but i was hoping Mavs were afraid for their Capital or for the other city, due to the Quat stack. BTW, what Quat did wasn't very smart. I even think it wasn't very fair to us. Those 2 turns they delayed pillaging the iron were very important.

In any case, better not rush the war.

Our best strategy is to grow, not only for VC (domination) purposes.

So, let's build settlers, plant those cities, then a much powerful army.

WEs are the best counter for Xbows. And of course knights. Even HAs can stand a chance. Sure not melee. A LB on a hill or in a city is the best unit until Rifles.

A double promotion does not mean much. It's handy, but not that crucial.

 

[Irgy]

I see Domination as "you've won the game already a while ago, but now it's official". If you've won domination then you could also win whatever other way you feel like, but they save you the trouble by making it a victory condition on its own.

In multiplayer, religion is simply cheese, diplomacy is only by concession, conquest is a waste of time (as you'll generally get domination first), score is highly unlikely and never something you would play for. No one will leave you alone to get culture or space peacefully, so you won't win them unless you're well on top of the scoreboard anyway (or you're opponents really screw up).

So I agree domination is the most likely, especially on a small map with only 6 civs, but I don't see "playing to win by domination" as any different from "playing to win". Sometimes you might be racing for domination in the end game against culture or maybe space, and the intra-team game was a bit of a special case*, but otherwise it's not a victory condition that you really "play for".

In any case, it's the land that's the sticking point in domination, never the population. And it's not getting 60% of the land that's the problem so much as restricting the other teams to less than 40%, if you get what I mean.

* In the end, domination was, I think, the only victory condition Lord Parkin was able to win in that game, without it I would have had him. Exactly why I think that will come in the writeup if I ever finish it. But it hinged on the fact that he agreed to finish it peacefully, and was playing a little sloppy as well, which I dare say was only the case because he knew he had domination in the bag anyway.

 

[BLubmuz]

My best space games were basically almost domination. With no actual race. That's why i repeat "growth is power!"

 

[AlphaShard]

Well I think the Bode cities spots are the priority, then we can fill in the anjen ones.

So for the mean time we stock on gold, build some archers and HA so when we get Fued and Guilds we can upgrade to Knights and Longbows?

What did you guys think on what I had to say about the Diplo situation?

 

[HUSch]

I looked at the game, Yamato has won the combat with 2 barbs, injured 42/100 HP and 3/2 XP, I would prefer flanking for navi the next.

Spoiler :

There are no difficult moves (Spy), some jobs needed to decide (Procyon), so my proposal.

Turn proposal:

1. Yamato goes to our territory to heal (tile south of Vega)
2. Nob (is on the tile) , units goes at land (NE best) and Nob goes south to help in blockade
3. New Mace (Arc) goes army point
4. Mariner goes back in war region
5. Spy goes
a) SE at land to Mavs spire
b) SW direction army point
6. Toch helps Pindi with plant
7. Husch (FC Achenar) build workshop
8. Settler (in Rigel) goes on Dawn and Dawn goes direction Arc
9. wb (Procyon) to clam

Arc builds archer, its good to build and upgrade.
Procyon barracks or I prefer lh (+2 )
Rigel builds lh
Betei finish granary with working fish.

Research best (in mm) slider is now 50%, we get 184 and 129 , both values are exact half of the maximum and with the factor 1.4 we
get (184 + 1) * 1.4 = 259; in 2 turns = 518
that is better than a changing of 100% and 0, with this we
get (368+1) *1.4 = 516 and the next turn (0+1) * 1,4 = 1; in 2 turns = 517

 

[AlphaShard]

After Betal finishes Granery, should it do Lighthouse?

I like the 50/50 with the Gold/Beakers. Will Canopus and AC still be building HA's to upgrade to Knights later?

Are we building Great Library in Sirius now?

I can't log into the game until 27th or so.

 

[BLubmuz]

First, if there're problems with the active playing in next days, i can do it.

Research 50%? It seems the same, but the game will "steal" some beaker and some gold here and there. Better run 0/100 every turn instead.

Why unload the untis from Nob? if they stay there they will gain 1 turn healing. If the ship is on our territory, it makes no difference.

Have we switched to settlers on Bode?

 

[HUSch]

After Betal finishes Granery, should it do Lighthouse?

It's a possibility, please remark next turn, if I/we forget it, the additional can make the whip of forge make better

I like the 50/50 with the Gold/Beakers. Will Canopus and AC still be building HA's to upgrade to Knights later?

Canopus build a EI, AC a WE in the moment

Are we building Great Library in Sirius now?

yes, now in 4 turns

I can't log into the game until 27th or so.

Please make votes, even you can't log in

First, if there're problems with the active playing in next days, i can do it.

Research 50%? It seems the same, but the game will "steal" some beaker and some gold here and there. Better run 0/100 every turn instead.

I don't understand you, after I post that 50/50 is best and compute it.

Why unload the units from Nob? if they stay there they will gain 1 turn healing. If the ship is on our territory, it makes no difference.

I didn't know that units heal onboard. But the ship should go in the blockade region, so that we 've there at least 2 EI, Mav has build a cara in Copper, I don't see why, but perhaps they 've a reason. Additional, I would like all units at army point and then in the coast town. The units need for healing 6 turns now.

Have we switched to settlers on Bode?

Arc and Vega build military units, Rigel, Achenar and Procyon buildings. Where do you want build settler?

 

[AlphaShard]

They may be building a Cara to attack the Galleons/EI, it's better then nothing and they did win with that 22% WE v Pike. Or they are transporting spys. If we can sink the Cara I'd do it.

Which city spot is the new Settler going to? The Coastal Clam/Copper seems like the best place, keep our stationed troops in our culture and make a good strong lauching point. Then we can settle the other remaining two spots on Bode.

 

[Irgy]

Research 50%? It seems the same, but the game will "steal" some beaker and some gold here and there. Better run 0/100 every turn instead.

This is only due to rounding errors, and as HUsch said he's already gone to the trouble of calculating that there's not a problem. You can still lose out to rounding errors on the second secret round of research bonuses (the always-active, pre-requisite bonus, the other civs knowing the tech bonus, and there might be others), but, due partly to the free 1bpt, all bets are off as to whether binary is actually better than any other tech rate for those rounding errors anyway.

I'd like to propose we never spend time calculating or arguing about rounding errors again from this point on. For all that Dhoomstriker banged on about losing multiple beakers everywhere from it in the SGOTM, you can easily show in game that you only ever lose strictly less than 1gpt to rounding, there has to be more important things to spend our attention on.

 

[HUSch]

I 'll make the turn now.
I 've made the turn, moved the units, but not unload Nob and no decision about the spy.

 

[BLubmuz]

My opinion is that the first city has to be the fort/canal one.
Then HuschB, then the one south. Finally the whales.

We can switch Vega and Arcturus to settlers. In some 10 turns we can have 4 more cities.

 

[AlphaShard]

I don't know if Binary really saves beakers/gold/etc, what I do see is that we can use binary to quickly accomplish one task. Like we did when we binared Espionage so we could do spy actions against Mav. I think we should focus on the gold but I'm willing to go with the 50/50.

The Fort city will need additional forces. Which is what I liked about our Clam/Copper city we have a army stacking up there.

 

[BLubmuz]

The Fort city will need additional forces. Which is what I liked about our Clam/Copper city we have a army stacking up there.

It's one of the main reasons i want that city first: We can keep one unit in the city for MP and 2-3 mixed ones fortified in the fort, without faraway costs. With roads, we can be safe from any attack.

The other reason is obvious, the fort will considerably speed our ferries from the mainland.

I already said that the city itself is weak, aside good commerce from incense, but it's the most important strategically.

In any case, can i log to the game and remove the signs we discarded? With such confusion we can settle in the wrong spot.

 

[HUSch]

Blub
For what we need the canal town? There is no infrastructure, the main reason would be as canal, but we would need a worker there too for building a fortress. Additional a worker for incense and without a worker there is no real good tile to work. Additional I wouldn't change the job of Vega and Arc, we need units. Now archer for upgrade.

btw
The 10 turns plan isn't possible, not that I think we could not found 4 new cities, but we 've no ressource (free worker) to improve the tiles at all these cities. 1 worker for one of these cities is not enough and we haven't the 1.
Rigel can build a settler every 8-10 turns, perhaps Procyon can whip the needed worker (I should look and make a better plan for worker/settler in the both towns). We 've 3 worker at Bode, the same at SOL, in Anjen 2. For 3 new cities at Bode we need at least a few new workers.

If we found now the westcoast city and then LP mines there the copper and the city build a wb then granary then perhaps a wb for the (Alpha A; Blub 2) town and this town can work/modernizes the tiles for the canal town. The whale town needs first a road, a ferry transfer isn't my wish. We don't need to grab land on Bode.

The Canal town, with the next EI (build in Can) and goes at south sea, we 've then 4 EI in the south. That should be enough, if our units (16) can't hold the OB 1 turn, then with 20 the result 'll be the same. For moving EIs the canal isn't necessary

Alpha
what is the meaning of binary. The slider position is only good in this exact situation, no one (and especial I) says, that this is a long time best. Your discussion about any loses is not understandable for me. The mechanics of research etc is clear, there are no unknown loses (in our forum (GermanWebring) we 've looked at the programming and discuss it). So I know that now we win 1 with 50/50 %. In the next turn with other values it must not be good. But Irgy is right, perhaps we shouldn't think about this, because there are other important things to pay attention about.


I would not like to research too quick. So in the next turns better low research rate and make money.

 

[HUSch]

Blub
please remove only markers, which you self has pointed.


we 've more than enough time for the next turn (it's the Xmas-turn I think), so there 'll be no reason for quick moving.

What kind of additional strategically meaning can 've the canal-town?

 

[HUSch]

The question is, wish we to wait for knights or not, before we make a new trial. I test the defense chance of LA (Long-Archer=Long-bowman) in a captured town, they are not so good as I wish. We get units with 1 promotion, so

A WE with * has 56,9 % against a LA with CG1 in town, but only 30,4 against LA (without prom) at hill, for the WE we need also a pike with *.
More problems are the maces, they 've allways a good chance (+60%) against units with CG1 (LA, cross)
A mace with CR1 has 60,4 % against the LA with CG1 in town, a better has also more chance.
Additional if we build (with theo or vassalage) a LA with 2 promotions is not much better
A mace with CR2 has 60,5 % against the LA with CG2 in town and they ‘ve so units.

So imo we need knights to hold a captured town.

 

[BLubmuz]

2 of my markers are on the decided spots, sooner or later.
There're more and i wanna remove those.

Are we short on workers? is a pretty common mistake. Let's build some more!

For a good game, you must have 1 worker/city (target cities, not present cities). With lots of jungle to clear (like on Bode) we should increase adding a couple more.

The more we delay settling, the more we delay their growth.

 

[AlphaShard]

Binary is when you push the slider to 100% in one thing like Gold, Research, Culture or Espionage. I thought you were the one that did the 100% Espionage. I thought what I said was pretty straight forward. Maximize the Slider in one function to maximise the gains in that one function. It neglects the others obviously and we were doing that with Science for awhile now so I don't understand how you don't understand.

In my experience I have not seen Binary save on beakers and usually do 20%Gold/70%Research/10%Culture, but that's for my solo games.

Anyways I wasn't arguing or nitpicking, I was AGREEING with you Husch.

Anyways it's a good idea to remove signs we don't need so go ahead Bulbmuz.

Also I thought it was 1.5Workers/city? Frankly 2 per city is fine with me.