Turn Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Lord Parkin
- Start date
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
Only just noticed these posts. 
I know I've been out of the loop for a long time, but if it's okay with everyone I'd be happy to step back into this game in the role of an advice-giving "general", if you want that. I could even start moving the units in the game once I get back up to speed, if that isn't stepping on anyone's toes. Most of you are probably aware that I'm reasonably experienced with multiplayer wars - the main issue for me until recently has been a lack of time to get much involved with this game. (Fighting Irgy and his team in the Warmup game has been taking 2-3 hours a day alone.
)
I should mention that I'll have limited access from the 18th over the Christmas-New Year period, but I presume the game will be slowed or paused over that time anyway since most people tend to be away or busy. Up until Christmas I should still be around semi-regularly, and from the new year I'll be around regularly again.
Anyway, I look forward to getting back into this game, in whatever role you guys prefer. I'll log into the game soon to check out what the current situation is - been a long time since I've even taken a peek.
I do indeed have a bit more time now that the Sirius intra-team game is done. Also, a 32-player 5-round knockout tournament I was involved with at the German civ site just recently finished after I won the final match, leaving me with more spare time as well.
I know I've been out of the loop for a long time, but if it's okay with everyone I'd be happy to step back into this game in the role of an advice-giving "general", if you want that. I could even start moving the units in the game once I get back up to speed, if that isn't stepping on anyone's toes. Most of you are probably aware that I'm reasonably experienced with multiplayer wars - the main issue for me until recently has been a lack of time to get much involved with this game. (Fighting Irgy and his team in the Warmup game has been taking 2-3 hours a day alone.
)I should mention that I'll have limited access from the 18th over the Christmas-New Year period, but I presume the game will be slowed or paused over that time anyway since most people tend to be away or busy. Up until Christmas I should still be around semi-regularly, and from the new year I'll be around regularly again.
Anyway, I look forward to getting back into this game, in whatever role you guys prefer. I'll log into the game soon to check out what the current situation is - been a long time since I've even taken a peek.
Good to hear LP.
Alphashard: If you have time, try the test more than once, and tell us also what order you used the units. You might be using a better attack order. Also, are the unit fortify bonuses are correct in that save (the one you get for staying still for up to 5 turns)?
If we're losing less units in total than they are, then we're ahead. As long as we won't die to a counterattack anyway - but at least against a counterattack we get the advantage of choosing the counter unit and defending on a hill. There were some healthy units left in that screenshot which is a good sign.
Please put things like this in the amazon diplomacy discussion if you really want a response, I nearly missed it here among everything else. From what I can see in the turn tracker thread screenshot, Amazon have a settler there (just in time). They'll have a few turns of our culture hammering them until they can get a library and expand to their second ring, at which point the 20 bonus culture on the inner ring will at least stop their city from flipping. It's particularly important then that we don't build a library in Rigel yet, so that they can set the city up without it flipping. It's not just to slow down Rigel's third ring but to reduce the amount of catching up they need to do to hold their own city. We will build a library there once doing so doesn't prevent Amazon holding on to their city.
I'd just like to say, Amazon are not telling us what to build and where to settle as people have been suggesting, we are telling them where to settle. It is perfectly reasonable that we make some effort not to culture flip the cities that we've told them to build. We're getting out of this deal a good chunk of land on Anjennida without having had to race to settle it. We might not be making the most of creative by holding back on culture, but they also haven't made the most of imperialistic by holding back on settling the whole thing before we had a chance to.
Alphashard: If you have time, try the test more than once, and tell us also what order you used the units. You might be using a better attack order. Also, are the unit fortify bonuses are correct in that save (the one you get for staying still for up to 5 turns)?
If we're losing less units in total than they are, then we're ahead. As long as we won't die to a counterattack anyway - but at least against a counterattack we get the advantage of choosing the counter unit and defending on a hill. There were some healthy units left in that screenshot which is a good sign.
Please put things like this in the amazon diplomacy discussion if you really want a response, I nearly missed it here among everything else. From what I can see in the turn tracker thread screenshot, Amazon have a settler there (just in time). They'll have a few turns of our culture hammering them until they can get a library and expand to their second ring, at which point the 20 bonus culture on the inner ring will at least stop their city from flipping. It's particularly important then that we don't build a library in Rigel yet, so that they can set the city up without it flipping. It's not just to slow down Rigel's third ring but to reduce the amount of catching up they need to do to hold their own city. We will build a library there once doing so doesn't prevent Amazon holding on to their city.
I'd just like to say, Amazon are not telling us what to build and where to settle as people have been suggesting, we are telling them where to settle. It is perfectly reasonable that we make some effort not to culture flip the cities that we've told them to build. We're getting out of this deal a good chunk of land on Anjennida without having had to race to settle it. We might not be making the most of creative by holding back on culture, but they also haven't made the most of imperialistic by holding back on settling the whole thing before we had a chance to.
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
Okay, I have a few thoughts and questions upon logging into the game... forgive me if there are blindingly obvious answers in some other thread, I haven't had much time to catch up yet. Also please forgive if some of these comments would be better placed in other threads - I just thought it'd be easier to keep everything together.
- Why hasn't our capital (or anyone else) built the Great Library? I would have thought this would be top priority for us, given our Academy and access to Marble. Also surprised National Epic isn't up yet, it's quite a powerful tool.
- We should really try to get a 10 XP unit as soon as possible for the Heroic Epic. It isn't that hard to do, but it'll really hurt us if we still don't have it once Mav/Merlot is gone and the tides turn. Could potentially even cost us the game (Heroic Epic is really that good when properly placed early enough).
- What's with all the Spies? What are we planning on using them for? Not sure how much use they're realistically going to be this early in the game against a backwards opponent who seems fairly likely to fold in the not-too-distant future. It's usually better, in my opinion at least, to save them for later when we're fighting rivals on a more even ground (after Merlot/Mav are gone). But maybe there's something I'm missing here... please let me know!
More general housekeeping issues:
- Vega should really build a Lighthouse ASAP... it's cheap and gives a nice instant food boost. Other than that, it's a good military production city.
- Alpha Centauri doesn't need an Aqueduct right now (queued up). A Lighthouse would be useful there, though.
- Get chopping those forests around Betelgeuse ASAP! Surprised most of them weren't chopped already for the capital, actually, but never mind.
- Rigel doesn't really need an Observatory right now, and I can't quite see why this was prioritised over a Library either (which is cheaper and better). A Lighthouse would be good there though.
- Achernar should really be working the Clam and not the Horse (presume this was to get the Granary built, but the overflow will do that this turn regardless, so better to work the Clam). Lighthouse and Forge are the obvious buildings next.
- Procyon needs a Work Boat for that Clam ASAP. It also needs a Lighthouse.
- Arcturus could use a Lighthouse too. Also, quite a lot of forests here that could do with being chopped ASAP. We're a little bit thin on Workers in this area, perhaps another one or two wouldn't hurt either.
Anyway, that's about all I found with one brief look. I think my most general overall comment would be that with the current tech/alliance situation, it seems best for us at the moment to stop concentrating on building any unnecessary buildings, and instead concentrate on Settlers/growth and military.
With regards to cities: there are at least two excellent city spots south of Arcturus, and we should fill them ASAP (I'm assuming that nobody else has laid claim to that land - it's closest to us after all). Our economy can more than support multiple new cities, and at the present point in the game hammers are far more valuable than beakers or gold, so we need to get ahead in this respect. A few well-placed new cities will help. Growing our existing cities will also help (some of them seem to be stagnant when they have enough happiness to easily grow a lot more).
With regards to military: we should pretty much be working towards simply building Barracks everywhere and starting to pump out units like crazy. We're going to need these units at some point or other, and it's better that we're prepared ahead of time than taken by surprise. To be perfectly honest, our military is rather mediocre at the moment, and it's spread paper-thin... I'd hate to see a surprise attack cripple us in the near future.
Please don't take offence at any of my suggestions - I may not be seeing the bigger picture, these are just initial impressions upon viewing the game for the first time in a long while. Getting answers will help me to get a feel for the game again though.
- Why hasn't our capital (or anyone else) built the Great Library? I would have thought this would be top priority for us, given our Academy and access to Marble. Also surprised National Epic isn't up yet, it's quite a powerful tool.
- We should really try to get a 10 XP unit as soon as possible for the Heroic Epic. It isn't that hard to do, but it'll really hurt us if we still don't have it once Mav/Merlot is gone and the tides turn. Could potentially even cost us the game (Heroic Epic is really that good when properly placed early enough).
- What's with all the Spies? What are we planning on using them for? Not sure how much use they're realistically going to be this early in the game against a backwards opponent who seems fairly likely to fold in the not-too-distant future. It's usually better, in my opinion at least, to save them for later when we're fighting rivals on a more even ground (after Merlot/Mav are gone). But maybe there's something I'm missing here... please let me know!
More general housekeeping issues:
- Vega should really build a Lighthouse ASAP... it's cheap and gives a nice instant food boost. Other than that, it's a good military production city.
- Alpha Centauri doesn't need an Aqueduct right now (queued up). A Lighthouse would be useful there, though.
- Get chopping those forests around Betelgeuse ASAP! Surprised most of them weren't chopped already for the capital, actually, but never mind.
- Rigel doesn't really need an Observatory right now, and I can't quite see why this was prioritised over a Library either (which is cheaper and better). A Lighthouse would be good there though.
- Achernar should really be working the Clam and not the Horse (presume this was to get the Granary built, but the overflow will do that this turn regardless, so better to work the Clam). Lighthouse and Forge are the obvious buildings next.
- Procyon needs a Work Boat for that Clam ASAP. It also needs a Lighthouse.
- Arcturus could use a Lighthouse too. Also, quite a lot of forests here that could do with being chopped ASAP. We're a little bit thin on Workers in this area, perhaps another one or two wouldn't hurt either.
Anyway, that's about all I found with one brief look. I think my most general overall comment would be that with the current tech/alliance situation, it seems best for us at the moment to stop concentrating on building any unnecessary buildings, and instead concentrate on Settlers/growth and military.
With regards to cities: there are at least two excellent city spots south of Arcturus, and we should fill them ASAP (I'm assuming that nobody else has laid claim to that land - it's closest to us after all). Our economy can more than support multiple new cities, and at the present point in the game hammers are far more valuable than beakers or gold, so we need to get ahead in this respect. A few well-placed new cities will help. Growing our existing cities will also help (some of them seem to be stagnant when they have enough happiness to easily grow a lot more).
With regards to military: we should pretty much be working towards simply building Barracks everywhere and starting to pump out units like crazy. We're going to need these units at some point or other, and it's better that we're prepared ahead of time than taken by surprise. To be perfectly honest, our military is rather mediocre at the moment, and it's spread paper-thin... I'd hate to see a surprise attack cripple us in the near future.
Please don't take offence at any of my suggestions - I may not be seeing the bigger picture, these are just initial impressions upon viewing the game for the first time in a long while. Getting answers will help me to get a feel for the game again though.
AlphaShard
Emperor
You are right that they are very good for teching but there is an issue with that, which I will address below to your ETTT alliance. Perhaps we can focus on those soon, we should build more GP, especially the Great Scientists.
This should be possible to do, we may have to even switch to Theocracy and Vassalage to do it.
The Spies are being sent to Inyjina and the Capital to incite revolts so we don't have to bombard the cities.
More general housekeeping issues:
This is why I had the worker make a Farm, I knew this city was going to need food to feed all the mines and Workshops.
It's at it's Health cap right now, I would have put in a Harbor but now we have actual hammers into the Aquduct (27) hate to waste them.
The Workers have been focused else where.
Please see Irgy's above post (the one above yours) he explains why were building an Observatory over a Library. To sum up though, were trying to keep Amazon as an Ally.
I'll let Husch argue this one. *heh*
Already addressed, I fixed the queue.
We've been focusing on the military units but I think we can squeeze out a worker or two somehow.
Now with regards to the Tech Alliance we've come to the decision that we no longer feel that it really benefits us. Unfortunately declaring that it's over tips our hand immediately and we think it better to draw this out. First we've stopped teching to load up on gold and as you mentioned we need to build buildings, this is why I want to use Universal Suffrage plus our stocking up on gold to buy said buildings.
We don't wish to hand over any more techs to the others as it has become clear that this Tech Alliance has NOT giving us an edge over Mav/Mer. So were trying to delay breaking this Tech alliance to prevent us from getting dogpiled, getting whatever techs we can get and making our cities stronger for when we do have to face Quat and CDZ.
There's actually alot of land down there so where to place cities is a bit debatable, I'll include a screencap of spots (A,B, & C?)
Spoiler :
I thought we were doing that, Vega and Arcturus have been our main military builders since they have so much Hammers, Procyon is being developed and Rigel needs workshops to produce units. Our Sol Cities should all have Barracks already (ok we just settled Betalgeuse, and Sirius has been building other things.
Please don't take offence at any of my suggestions - I may not be seeing the bigger picture, these are just initial impressions upon viewing the game for the first time in a long while. Getting answers will help me to get a feel for the game again though.
No problem.
Attachments
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
Well that's the thing, once the ETTT is done the Great Library will still continue to be of use with the extra science and (more importantly) great people. Although at this point we're already fairly far into the tech tree, and it isn't that long until the Great Library will obsolete anyway.
Okay, makes some sense then.
Right, but the Lighthouse will still give +1 food on top of whatever else we have. Never say no to a (cheap) free food per turn.
Right, but no need to complete the Aqueduct until the turn that we grow to the next size. And even then, are we sure we can't hook up or trade for a new health resource (which is more efficient)?
If it's about the 2 culture per turn, that seems ridiculously nit-picky of them. But personally, I'd say if they won't "let" us build a Library, then just forget it and start building Barracks/military. Little point in going for the Observatory with the city's current size and hammer output, it's just not worth it.
Okay, good. The numbers in general seem decent, but we still could use a couple more Workers overall, especially since we're planning on founding new cities soon.
Okay, makes sense. I'd wholeheartedly agree that it doesn't benefit us to keep teching at full rate ourselves, especially if no-one else is. I get the impression our allies have rather been taking advantage of us and our higher science rate, while they get to build up their cities and units.
Rifling will give a definite edge over Mav/Merlot once it's reached, but it certainly won't help us if everyone else in the game has it. Anyway, delaying any notice of our intentions seems to make sense.
Seems pretty decent. B is an excellent spot, and A is also pretty good. C doesn't really seem worth prioritising at the moment, although it could be a decent filler city later.
Yeah, it seems like a good start, but we need to continue in that direction. Especially get the Heroic Epic up in either Vega or Arcturus (will have to check out which is better) - again getting back to needing a 10 XP unit soon. That'll almost double the unit output from whatever city it's in - no small thing!
Thanks for the reply - a bit of discussion really helps to get me up to speed quickly.
AlphaShard
Emperor
Yeah isn't Scientific Method the one that does it? I know that Tech takes out ALOT of things.
Right, but the Lighthouse will still give +1 food on top of whatever else we have. Never say no to a (cheap) free food per turn.
I did suggest lighthouses and was told it wasn't needed.
Yeah we can put off the Aqueduct though it will get hammer decay.
More like 5 culture when added to the current +3 that is in there already. Again it's more of a goodwill thing
This is one of the biggest reasons we're done with this Tech trading.
Problem is there Teching has kept them keeping their military units compreamble to our own. The last thing I want is for CDZ to get Rifiling, can you imagine those Beserkers becoming Riflemen with Amphious.
Basically, as AlphaShard has been saying, the tragedy of the commons has hit the ETTT, and no-one is doing any research if they can help it. The library provides nothing but research which we're currently giving away to our long term rivals, and burns up our great person slots. By the time we have the benefits of the library to ourselves (or at least ourselves and Amazon) it will probably be obsolete.
This isn't a good situation, but that's the short version of why no library. It's also that we've been constantly behind in development and military, partly because of our earlier research focus, and have been focusing our resources on catching up on those fronts.
The other literature buildings are probably mostly just suffering no-one having thought about them much yet. The Heroic in particular will be particularly good on this really quite small map.
Yes and you're not the first person to say this believe me
If you see the exasperated tone of the last part of my most recent post you'll see what I mean. Basically though there's two reasons it's happening.1. Amazon could never accept our perfectly reasonable dotmap on face value without making us give some sort of ground, and this was what we wore them down to.
2. They have a city location planned that will be under direct culture pressure from Rigel soon. If they can't keep that city they're going to want something in return for it and it won't be likely to be something less valuable than the library we're (temporarily) not buliding.
Their demand was the broader and therefore less nitpicky "no culture buildings on Anjennida". We haven't agreed to quite that, but just to avoid pure culture buildings like cathedrals, and wait until they have culture buildings of their own before getting the incidental culture buildings like libraries and universities. The library in Rigel just seems to be the main point of contention within this team.
AlphaShard
Emperor
Yeah they demanded Rigel, we obviously said no. Rigel is such a powerful city that I want the corresponding Poison City on the Mav spoke which is funny enough settled in the same corresponding location to be just like Rigel.
Lord Parkin
aka emperor
Hmm, I can see the dilemma there. I guess it should have been more expressedly agreed in the first place that everyone must contribute an equivalent number of beakers to the alliance. A "free for all" would probably have worked fine in a 3-3 situation, but with 4-2 it probably wasn't the best choice. Never mind.
You know, there is a way around it though. The Great Library + National Epic would still provide us with a good benefit for a while (we just avoid Scientific Method for as long as possible), and we can get around the problem of the tech stalemate by simply researching one thing to near-completion, then switching to something else. That way we never complete anything so we don't have to give anything to anyone, but as soon as the ETTT folds, we get a bunch of new techs all at once.
As for the Great People we get, they belong to us. The other teams don't have any right to tell us what to do with them, and if they bug us about them then we can easily point out the flawed logic (e.g. why don't they use their own great people to help out the alliance).
Okay, good to know. At least we're recognising the error now and correcting for it before it's too late, though.
Indeed, it will. Let's make that a priority in the near future.
I'll have a read of the diplomacy threads soon then.Yes and you're not the first person to say this believe me
1. Amazon could never accept our perfectly reasonable dotmap on face value without making us give some sort of ground, and this was what we wore them down to.
2. They have a city location planned that will be under direct culture pressure from Rigel soon. If they can't keep that city they're going to want something in return for it and it won't be likely to be something less valuable than the library we're (temporarily) not buliding.
Ah, right. Well then, the gist of it sounds like AMAZON is being a bit unreasonable, but for now we'll have to deal with this. However, building an Observatory in Rigel wasn't the best solution, I think. Better to go the Barracks/unit route if we can't build the Library, rather than building an expensive and not really needed Observatory. We'll need those units sooner rather than later. Perhaps finish the Observatory now that we're this far into it, but probably best to avoid buildings for a while after that I think.
AlphaShard
Emperor
Ah they didn't like that idea at all when we first brought it up, that a beaker for beaker trade was too restricting and untrusting. I didn't like it then and now I can see why.
You know, there is a way around it though. The Great Library + National Epic would still provide us with a good benefit for a while (we just avoid Scientific Method for as long as possible), and we can get around the problem of the tech stalemate by simply researching one thing to near-completion, then switching to something else. That way we never complete anything so we don't have to give anything to anyone, but as soon as the ETTT folds, we get a bunch of new techs all at once.
This is what Blubmuz was suggesting.
I meant that if we do bulbing, those techs would then have to be handed over and that's something none of us want to do anymore.
Well it's a whippable building at this point, I think it will cost 2 pop to do so. Either that or sub in the barracks, but again this city needs some more workshops.
Hmm, I can see the dilemma there. I guess it should have been more expressedly agreed in the first place that everyone must contribute an equivalent number of beakers to the alliance. A "free for all" would probably have worked fine in a 3-3 situation, but with 4-2 it probably wasn't the best choice. Never mind.
You know, there is a way around it though. The Great Library + National Epic would still provide us with a good benefit for a while (we just avoid Scientific Method for as long as possible), and we can get around the problem of the tech stalemate by simply researching one thing to near-completion, then switching to something else. That way we never complete anything so we don't have to give anything to anyone, but as soon as the ETTT folds, we get a bunch of new techs all at once.
BLubmuz suggested something along these lines earlier. The trouble is that if any teams have enough EPs on us to see our research it will look very dodgy. Worse than Quatronia's mass warrior upgrade strategy I'm not sure but that's another issue.
They are ours, but my understanding is that the best use of scientists, once you have an academy in your key research city - which we do already, is to bulb technologies. Particularly technologies like Education and Liberalism. If we're not going to do that with them then at the very least we're not getting the kind of benefits that the Great Library is known for. I'm not saying I'm sure it isn't worth it, but it's not as good as it could be.
The debate over the Rigel library probably had a side effect of overinflating the perceived value of that 25% research bonus.
I meant to ask that when I logged in a while back, why are we building pre-chemistry, non-caste-system non-state-property workshops at all? They're rubbish. Farms will give us effectively more production (via the whip) if we're that desperate for it, but I'd have thought we should be building cottages anyway. Especially on Anjennida, which is spectacular cottage land and never going to be good production.
AlphaShard
Emperor
Yeah I thought the Observatory would be a good comprimise, get us the 25% bonus without the culture hassel. It didn't seem to be producing enough hammers to be a good military production city.
Though I do have to point out that in many of the MP games I've played being non-Cre sucks @$$. Seriously it takes forever to get a Monument going and it's never as good as that +2
Cre gets naturally. It can be a real pain especially on small maps such as this one. There probably going to have to get a Temple and Monastery going as well.
EDIT: Well when we are Guilds+Chemistry, Caste System, Leeve's it will be a +5 Hammer tile.
Though I do have to point out that in many of the MP games I've played being non-Cre sucks @$$. Seriously it takes forever to get a Monument going and it's never as good as that +2
Cre gets naturally. It can be a real pain especially on small maps such as this one. There probably going to have to get a Temple and Monastery going as well.EDIT: Well when we are Guilds+Chemistry, Caste System, Leeve's it will be a +5 Hammer tile.
And that's when we might consider building them. Currently we're none of those things and they just change it from one unimproved tile to another. Unlike cottages, you can build them when you're ready for them and they're up to speed straight away. By the time we're ready for them the workers should have next to nothing else to do - if they don't then we haven't built enough.
Even in the long run though, I wouldn't really prefer 2
5
1
over the 229 from a town, at least for our commerce cities.That's exactly what I mean, we were too busy thinking of it as a good compromise rather than whether it's objectively a good option. It can easily be a good compromise but still worse than the other alternatives.
Just because a city is production poor doesn't mean it shouldn't build military. Other than the one overhead cost of building a barracks, it's really all just hammers no matter what city they're in. If it will only build one unit in 10 turns then it wasn't going to build much useful infrastructure in that time either.
That said, it is a commerce city, so building commerce buildings is reasonable. It's just that Lord Parkin is saying we should be building more military everywhere.
AlphaShard
Emperor
I'm not against building more military, just want to do it as efficiently as possible.
Trystero
Deity
Great to see you back, LP. It seems Irgy and AlphaShard have done a pretty good job getting you up to speed. In a way it's good that you've been absent for a while. I think we would really benefit from a fresh perspective.
I posted an update for Turn 131 in the Turn Tracker thread. I also summarized Mavs current military disposition on their home island. They have a number of CG2 crossbows, which seem to be giving Quatronia a hard time.
I only played the first part of the turn, so some details are missing from the turn report.
I posted an update for Turn 131 in the Turn Tracker thread. I also summarized Mavs current military disposition on their home island. They have a number of CG2 crossbows, which seem to be giving Quatronia a hard time.
I only played the first part of the turn, so some details are missing from the turn report.
Lp
It's good to see someone here, who knows about war and making the plans to victory in it.
Rigel can only whip buildings and units. It's therefor the best GP-producing.
You are right, we need some more towns in south of Bode.
btw
What do you say to our expedition corps to Inj.
the aque in AC was an idea (from me) to HG, but Maw was quicker with an Engineer.
Achenar: I saw the fishing boat there at next turn, as I made the post, my mistake.
Edit
For this turn: Should we whip the cross in Arc to get big overlay?
It's good to see someone here, who knows about war and making the plans to victory in it.
Rigel can only whip buildings and units. It's therefor the best GP-producing.
You are right, we need some more towns in south of Bode.
btw
What do you say to our expedition corps to Inj.
the aque in AC was an idea (from me) to HG, but Maw was quicker with an Engineer.
Achenar: I saw the fishing boat there at next turn, as I made the post, my mistake.
Edit
For this turn: Should we whip the cross in Arc to get big overlay?
