Turn Discussion Thread

[AlphaShard]

I've experienced the benefits and seen them when a Human oppenet gets a religion and shrine before me. You can still get a scientist first and then a prophet later. I just don't agree with your assessment Azzaman. It's not jus the money but the beakers, hammer, culture, and happyness we'd be skipping.

 

[azzaman333]

We don't skip any beakers or any hammers by not founding a religion. We lose a minor amount of culture (not an issue, we're creative) and 1 .

 

[grant2004]

I disagree strongly with Azzaman, religion is important. In my single player games having that extra religious income can be huge, it often allows me to settle one or two extra cities, before maintainance becomes a problem. Spreading religion is a cheap and easy way to get extra income as well, missionaries are cheap in terms of hammer cost, and after you settle them it generates between 1 and 3 gold for you every turn. Spreading them abroad isn't difficult to do, especially in a game where we may share islands or a mainland with the other teams.

 

[pindicator]

I think i'm between the two parties. I would like a religion -- but not for shrine income. I'm more of a fan of the civic benefits of a religion. OR up and running is a great boon to developing new cities. The gold benefit seems a minor plus -- not insignificant, no, but not significant enough to make that a key strategy piece. This is 30gpt that is going to come in 80 - 100 turns, after we build 8 or more missionaries and then build 100s of hammers of infrastructure in a shrine city that is possible to manipulate but still mostly a random process so it may come in a hammer-poor city.

The thing that confuses me a bit Irgy, is that you are putting a high emphasis on getting a religion out of CoL -- but your tech path is hardly the quickest way to getting the tech. Going Math -> Currency -> CoL is so much slower than trading AMAZON for Priesthood and teching CoL straightaway. It risks losing out on the religion to another team that is more focused on it.

Perhaps the religion topic needs it's own separate discussion page? So we can determine as a team where it fits in as a strategy.

 

[azzaman333]

I disagree strongly with Azzaman, religion is important. In my single player games having that extra religious income can be huge, it often allows me to settle one or two extra cities, before maintainance becomes a problem. Spreading religion is a cheap and easy way to get extra income as well, missionaries are cheap in terms of hammer cost, and after you settle them it generates between 1 and 3 gold for you every turn. Spreading them abroad isn't difficult to do, especially in a game where we may share islands or a mainland with the other teams.

I rate the civics use over the shrine gold. And we can get the civics use from Amazon spreading it.

 

[GoSkins]

I'm leaning towards IW and not COL. Just out of curiosity, what value do you guys give to the Apostolic Palace? In single player it can be a very handy tool to DOW on the enemy or stop a war. Not to mention the production bonus.

 

[Trystero]

FWIW - I still think we should try to pick up IW in trade and pursue the Math > Currency > CoL path. Actually my second choice would be something like Aesthetics > Literature for The Parthenon or The Great Library.

I ended the last turn that AlphaShard played (turn 47), and played but did not end the next turn:

Turn 48 - 2080

Canopus finished the first Work Boat, and began building the second. The WB moved to a Fish tile. Although the screen shot does not show it, I switched Canopus to work the Gold + FP from the Gold + Silk:

Spoiler :

Voyager moved 1E + 1SE, and continued to follow the AMAZON WB:

Spoiler :

Resource allocation on this map is rather symmetrical:

Spoiler :

The demographics were unchanged since the last turn (so no screen shot).

 

[azzaman333]

Math > Currency > CoL will be too slow to get Confu.

 

[BLubmuz]

Math > Currency > CoL will be too slow to get Confu.

Sure. I think that if we want a religion, mainly for the happiness and the OR, we must try to have the prerequisites from Amazon. Then straight to it, or we can lose the race.

And don't forget the Courthouses, please!

 

[Irgy]

We're arguing in circles.

My original proposal of Math->Currency->CoL was based on getting these good economy techs in a beaker-efficient way. We might get Confucianism, but I agree that we might not either, and that it's not the best tech path to get it.

The reason I was arguing about the benefits of religion is that Azzaman was claiming we're better off giving the religion to AMAZON than having it ourselves, and I disagreed quite strongly with this view. I wasn't trying to sell the Math tech path on the religion, that's just a bonus. Currency is actually the tech that will be by far the more useful in the short term.

Under the Math tech path, if we really want a religion our best chance is probably to bulb Philosophy with the great scientist, and pump out a new one quickly under pacifism for the academy. I'm not sure whether this is a good plan or not mind you, just putting it out there.

It sounds like we need a poll on tech path anyway, as there's a lot of disagreement. I'm just not sure I know what the right set of options to put in it is.

 

[Trystero]

I should have been clearer with my comment. As Irgy has already explained, I'm in favor of the "Math > Currency > CoL" path because it gives us good economic techs, and the possibility of a religion as a bonus. In particular, even if we prioritize IW, I think we should tech Math first. I've been doing some test games, and I think getting the chopping bonus earlier is a good thing. This path also puts us well on the way to Civil Service >>> Liberalism, which I think would be a good use of our advantage in tech rate. Bulbing Philosophy is an interesting idea.

Again, I think the immediate need for IW is low (we haven't even scouted the other islands for copper/horses), it's risky in that we won't necessarily find Iron, and it could possibly be obtained in trade.

 

[azzaman333]

Safety first.

And if we don't find Iron or any other metal, we may want to consider going to CS via Feudalism.

 

[Irgy]

So, AMAZON's recent message has bearing on this discussion in two ways, both coming from the fact that they're going after Monotheism:
* They will have a religion of their own (if they get it), that they're happy to spread to us. The desire for a religion is now more about spreading our own rather than spreading theirs to keep the gold to ourselves (or we could make an agreement to spread both for twice the profit each).
* They're busy with their own research path, and aren't likely to detour to Iron Working.

 

[Irgy]

If we really want safety, we're better off getting Archery. It's cheaper (especially since we can get Hunting in trade), and it's guaranteed to actually help us. Archers are pretty good against everything except maybe immortals, but as I've said before AMAZON aren't a team I'm worried will attack us at the moment. Plus, they don't have horses anyway, because if they had horses they certainly would have researched The Wheel by now.

Archers are almost as cheap as warriors for HR happiness, plus they actually defend our cities as well. Not to mention we can still build warriors for a while yet anyway.

On the whole, being undercautious may be a way to lose sometimes, but I really don't think being overcautious is the way to win either.

 

[Trystero]

I agree that if safety is the major concern we should research Archery.

One other thing in favor of IW is that it leads to Compass > Optics, and eventually Astronomy. Having warships will also eventually be necessary for our safety. I'm not sure I think we are in such immediate threat that we need to put beakers into Archery that could be usefully applied elsewhere. However, the appearance of humanoid barbarians could make Archery a higher priority.

 

[AlphaShard]

Turn 49 - 2040

Lord Parkin has finished chop, WB in Canopus will be done next turn. Sirius to grow to size 6 and complete Galley next turen as well. Alphabet two turns to go.

Spoiler :

Voyager moved 1S + 1SE, and continued to follow the AMAZON WB:

Spoiler :

I wanted to show the City status screen for Canopus: (I switched from FP to settled fish)

Spoiler :

and Sirius: (I noticed that we can grow and complete the Galley and hire a Scientist.)

Spoiler :

Demographics:

Spoiler :

Note I have not finished the Turn so city micro can be changed.

 

[Trystero]

Looks good. Since Sirius has grown to size 6, we should be running 2 scientists and working 2 Gold + 2 Fish.

Also, I think you meant that Voyager moved 2S

 

[AlphaShard]

Yes I meant 2s, I just forgot the exact direction. Fixed now.

Also Sirius is still Size 5 but WILL be size 6 next turn even with the Scientist running instead of silk. Since we are going to make worker/settler next we don't have to worry about growth and get started on that Great Scientist now.

 

[Trystero]

Ah, I missed that since you mentioned running the scientist. The micro plan has us working the Silk until size 6 then running both scientists. I think we maximize the overflow by working the Silk one more turn.

 

[AlphaShard]

So It's either +2food&+1Hammer toward the next worker/settler or +3gp? Kinda would like to get started on the GP. Not totally sure the additional overflow will make much difference on turns. Can we test that?