[R&F] Twilight Valor:+200% overflow on 65 prod ships!

[Arent11]

Just don't let multipliers influence the outcome of a chop (except for +100% from Magnus). Done. Easy fix. It's powerful enough without it and overflow would still work.

But why would chopping help you with anything anyway? I get that chopping a forest could help you with building wooden ships, but why should it help you with building a spaceport? And what is meant by "harvesting" a stone resource? Does stone grow like fish & if you "hunt" it too much, it dies out? And what is meant by "harvesting" rice? You harvest rice & plant it anew, that's just the way it works

 

[Turrdy]

Based on Game Era though, not your tech era. If you’re producing enough Science it’s not unusual to be getting Spaceports when the game is still in the pre-Atomic era, even if you’re not Lily Lancer.

And if you were Lily Lancer you'll probably have to wait till Renaissance Era to use that card for your already existing space ports

 

[Uberfrog]

I'm happy to see that even you are calling for a fix now. In single player this is not so bad, but in multiplayer you can not easily control whether someone abuses such stuff.

An easy fix would be that chopping doesn't yield anything & doesn't cost a builder charge.

No, chopping itself is an interesting game mechanic that adds a decision between short term yield and long term investment, beyond just building improvements on everything.

The appropriate fix is to apply policy cards as a % discount on the production cost of the relevant item, instead of a net production modifier that overflows into whatever you want to produce next.

 

[criZp]

In single player this is not so bad, but in multiplayer you can not easily control whether someone abuses such stuff.

well you could just make a simple mod for it

 

[Arent11]

No, chopping itself is an interesting game mechanic that adds a decision between short term yield and long term investment, beyond just building improvements on everything.

The appropriate fix is to apply policy cards as a % discount on the production cost of the relevant item, instead of a net production modifier that overflows into whatever you want to produce next.

Just pointed out the easiest solution. They also abolished the horse economy by simply removing the underlying mechanic.

 

[Uberfrog]

Just pointed out the easiest solution. They also abolished the horse economy by simply removing the underlying mechanic.

Fair enough, but I fear it’s another sledgehammer cracking a nut style solution, similar to the England nerf.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I'm happy to see that even you are calling for a fix now. In single player this is not so bad, but in multiplayer you can not easily control whether someone abuses such stuff.

To be fair, Lily Lancer is one of the first people on this forum I recall pointing out how overflow can be abused and suggesting that developers should address the issue. He continually raises the issue whenever the developers change the mechanics to make overflow more beneficial, which seems to be the only change the developers are inclined to make.

No, chopping itself is an interesting game mechanic that adds a decision between short term yield and long term investment, beyond just building improvements on everything.

The appropriate fix is to apply policy cards as a % discount on the production cost of the relevant item, instead of a net production modifier that overflows into whatever you want to produce next.

I agree. Changing the "production bonus" cards to "cost discount" cards would be a simple and elegant fix.
​

Another improvement would be to provide enhanced bonuses to intact resources, to make the decision about whether to chop or not more interesting. Give Workshops an additional bonus to iron, copper, and stone. Create a new alternative level 1 building like a Millworks to give a bonus to intact old growth forests. Things like that might make chop more situationally beneficial, and also provide an incentive to build more Industrial Zones.

 

[Uberfrog]

Another improvement would be to provide enhanced bonuses to intact resources, to make the decision about whether to chop or not more interesting. Give Workshops an additional bonus to iron, copper, and stone. Create a new alternative level 1 building like a Millworks to give a bonus to intact old growth forests. Things like that might make chop more situationally beneficial, and also provide an incentive to build more Industrial Zones.

I would like to see the too. Bonus resources are pretty inconsistently applied, with cereals giving you bonuses from granaries, and little else.

The workshop could give a bonus to stone, the barracks to copper, etc.

Thinking a little bigger, secondary industries like Civ IV corporations that help you get more bonuses from resources in the late game would be interesting too.

 

[Casualty of war]

Twilight Valor is how I turn my Dark Classical Eras into Heroic Medieval. Oligarchy plus Twilight Valor means your Swordsmen are just buzzsaws, and you can still pillage-heal.

Norway has always looked terrible if you don't chop and amazing if you do. You can get the +100% Naval card so early that you can chop into a Galley plus something amazing and wipe away the AIs headstart in the early game. It's pretty easy to have a Golden Classical with Norway from all the Era points you rack up. And Magnus is clearly Norwegian.

 

[Turrdy]

Twilight Valor is how I turn my Dark Classical Eras into Heroic Medieval. Oligarchy plus Twilight Valor means your Swordsmen are just buzzsaws, and you can still pillage-heal.

Norway has always looked terrible if you don't chop and amazing if you do. You can get the +100% Naval card so early that you can chop into a Galley plus something amazing and wipe away the AIs headstart in the early game. It's pretty easy to have a Golden Classical with Norway from all the Era points you rack up. And Magnus is clearly Norwegian.

Can they heal with the help of that great scientist (dont remember the name) or apostels with promotion or medics for that matter during Twilight Valor? (i.e. is only self healing prohibited?)

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

It would be such an easy fix - it's kind of ridiculous now and this is a good example of why. They already made a change to address the SV overflow so I don't see why they can't do it for Magnus which is arguably even worse. I wish they would just deactivate modifiers on overflow or at least only apply the max modifier. I might have to play Norway now though just to give this a try.

 

[wutface]

the issue is not overflow

ofc not

in mid-late game if you leave forest as-is an work it = +1 prod per turn (+2 prod with some tech)
if you chop it then you instantly get 200-300 hundred turns worth of production from that tile (before magnus and modifiers)
yup
legit af

so let's say i'm playing my epic speed (750 turn cap) large map on turn 327 chop worth for me is 300 right now +modifiers + magnus
…
+2 per turn versus 300 * over9000 %-based modifiers
…
hmm
hmmmm
mmhmmhm
is it me or game would not even last long enuf to forest improvement beat chop in value?

 

[cakes]

The best part of this discovery is if you are playing Norway you won't get denounced by Norway for having no ships!

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

Video of Wonder construction using the techniques described above please!

(I don't really understand overflow still)

It works like this: Que up a boat so all the production modifiers apply and then chop the forest

Base chop yield * 2 (Magnus) * 2(Press gangs) * 2(Marque) * 1.5 (Norway bonus) * 1.25 (God of the Forge) = modifier of 15 (they all stack). So multiply all your base chops by 15 to get your total production pool. Only a tiny portion of that goes to complete the ship and the rest is overflow which will be applied to whatever you build next and so on until all of it is exhausted.

So base yield of 50 hammers translates to 750 hammers after all of the above is applied. To max the overflow you just build a ship until it is one turn from complete then chop the forest with the bonuses in place. For even more hilarity I think you can combine this with Goddess of the Harvest to get an equal amount of faith.

 

[Monthar]

Instead of multipliers when building specific units/buildings they should change them to discounts. Thus instead of +100% production when building ships that policy card would be ships cost 50% less production, which gives the same effect. Even if that means the ships also end up costing 50% less gold to buy, it's far better than the ridiculously high overflows.

Magnus' basic bonus could be changed from a +100% harvest bonus to harvests count as 1 era higher. Alternately, since most of this promotions have to do with production bonuses, his base bonus could be something like +1 production from all improvements that add production, ie. mines, lumbermills, pastures, quarries, etc.

 

[Trengilly]

I love chopping/harvesting its fun and historically accurate - at least up to the industrial era. For most of history cities - and their districts were founded on the exploitation harvesting trees and stone. Access to stone often dictated where cities were settled and much of the world was deforested.

The problem in Civ6 is one of balance.

I agree. Changing the "production bonus" cards to "cost discount" cards would be a simple and elegant fix.

I agree with others that making the cards cost discounts instead would solve much of the issue.

The other change I would like to see is for chopping yields to stop scaling by the industrial era - and possible decline going forward - as the immediate value of these resources isn't really helpful anymore toward modern districts, buildings, and units.

Having other buildings increase resource yields is also a great idea and would really add to the game. (workshops could increase lumber mills/quarries +1, factories increase mines, power plants increase oil/uranium).

Magnus is just fine - with the crazy yield multipliers removed his 100% isn't an issue. In fact I think the other governors need their +% build modifiers increased (and changed to cost discounts) Right now governors like Pignala isn't worth moving around (and losing the culture/science bonus) just for a minor production increase. Better to leave him in your highest culture/science city for maximum benefit.

As Civ6 stands right now - chopping is just so overpowered that you can pretty much disregard tile improvements. Farms literally never need to be built - its just crazy. Off topic - but food yields should be decreased for unimproved tiles and increased for farms. You should have to have farms if you want any growth!

 

[civtrader6]

It works like this: Que up a boat so all the production modifiers apply and then chop the forest

Base chop yield * 2 (Magnus) * 2(Press gangs) * 2(Marque) * 1.5 (Norway bonus) * 1.25 (God of the Forge) = modifier of 15 (they all stack). So multiply all your base chops by 15 to get your total production pool. Only a tiny portion of that goes to complete the ship and the rest is overflow which will be applied to whatever you build next and so on until all of it is exhausted.

So base yield of 50 hammers translates to 750 hammers after all of the above is applied. To max the overflow you just build a ship until it is one turn from complete then chop the forest with the bonuses in place. For even more hilarity I think you can combine this with Goddess of the Harvest to get an equal amount of faith.

Is the above calculation correct?
The modifiers do stack - but not up to x15. Rather:

Base chop yield is doubled with Magnus and then further modified.
But instead of multiplying each other - the remaining modifiers all add up like this: (100% Press Gangs + 100% Marque + 50% Norway Bonus + 25 % God of the Forge) =275%
So it becomes base * 2 * 275% = Base * 550% total?
Which is still a lot but not 15.

 

[bonafide11]

It works like this: Que up a boat so all the production modifiers apply and then chop the forest

Base chop yield * 2 (Magnus) * 2(Press gangs) * 2(Marque) * 1.5 (Norway bonus) * 1.25 (God of the Forge) = modifier of 15 (they all stack). So multiply all your base chops by 15 to get your total production pool. Only a tiny portion of that goes to complete the ship and the rest is overflow which will be applied to whatever you build next and so on until all of it is exhausted.

So base yield of 50 hammers translates to 750 hammers after all of the above is applied. To max the overflow you just build a ship until it is one turn from complete then chop the forest with the bonuses in place. For even more hilarity I think you can combine this with Goddess of the Harvest to get an equal amount of faith.

How are you going to get God of the Forge with Goddess of the Harvest though?

 

[RealHuhn]

I love chopping/harvesting its fun and historically accurate - at least up to the industrial era.

True that, Cleopatra married Magnus, they went into the woods with an axe and the Pyramids appeared out of thin air 1 second later. Of course, they had to gift some of that wood to a slinger buddy of them, just to get the overflow right.

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

Base chop yield is doubled with Magnus and then further modified.
But instead of multiplying each other - the remaining modifiers all add up like this: (100% Press Gangs + 100% Marque + 50% Norway Bonus + 25 % God of the Forge) =275%
So it becomes base * 2 * 275% = Base * 550% total?
Which is still a lot but not 15.

I could be wrong - maybe they all apply to the base yield after Magnus and are not stacked in which case I think it would be 7.5x not 5.5x. Either way it's a lot - will have to test it.