Two biggest problems with Civ right now

[eaglefox]

the ai is a big problem. the resources are very loosely defined. i source of oil cannot fulfill all of a nations needs

 

[eaglefox]

hey ghafhi! let's get a few things straight. India gave the world the concept of zero. you count the way you do because of the indians. india gave the world the decimal system. computers today are possible because the decimal system exists. these are two of the most important contributions to mathematics. there are numerous more that i don't wanna list right now. read a book man! india had the first university in the whole world. 60000 students from all over the world studied there. india gave the world three major religions. only jerusalem can lay claim to that title. till the end of the 17th century, india was the richest country in the world. the british made the suez canal to get to india faster, there is a reason for that!! the whole concept of eastern spirituality came from india. bhuddism which spread to countries as far as japan is an indian religion - not chinese as many people think. if you read the real history of martial arts as we know it today, you'll find that it started in india. in modern times, india has nukes, india have made super computers, india has a good space program, india has an advanced IT industry. most european countries can't lay claim to that. so get the facts straight the next time.

 

[Ghafhi]

Let's see. They created the East India Company and was one of the first major powers to open asia up to european trade. The founded a string of strategic trading posts throughout India, South Africa, and Southeast Asia, many of those colonies were still under their control well into the 20th century. Their naval knowledge was extensive, eclipsing that of the portugese, and were among the first european nations to successfully navigate the pacific, opening Japan up for trade during the Sengoku period. Dutch rutters were highly prized, considered state secrets. Dutch navigators could command a king's ransom for any expedition. Militarily, they were able to revolt from the Spanish at the height of Spain's empire and form their own nation. Combined with their skillful use of trade and powerful navy, they catipulted themselves from euro-trash vassals to a world power within the span of a single ruler's lifetime. In art, many of the great "Old Masters" are Dutch, creating some of the finest paintings the world over. Ever hear of Rembrandt?

Ethiopia? According to what I've read, they did become a nation before the time of Christ, and are known for having been one of the few subsaharan nations to convert to christianity prior to the crusades, but outside of that, Ethiopia's history reads like a series of rebellions and invasions, each harder to defeat than the last. Ethiopia barely kept itself together, and on several occasions imploded only to be rebuilt, slightly weaker than before. Despite its central location and access to lucrative trade routes between the middle east and africa, Ethopia never managed to do more than be a footnote in some other nation's history.

The Dutch were not a major power in fact they had to hire mercenaries cause they have no army. The Dutch lost SA to the brits. The Dutch revolted with the help of surrounding powers when the leader of spain was in question. Th true leader was the french king but other powers didn't want france to become a super nation so they broke up the spainsh empire in europe.

What you said about Ethiopia is off by alot. They were the first Christian nation. Ethiopia is way bigger than the Dutch which shows who is better. Ethiopia beat Italy twice in war far more than Dutch has ever accomplished.

 

[Ghafhi]

I'm just tired of watching this guy slamming a legitimate nation without bringing anything else to the table. His posts read like he knows nothing of history and just wants to play the racism card.

anything about racism you did so maybe you are trying to acknowledge something that I purposely overlooked. I'm not saying yadah is better than dutch, I am saying that dutch don't deserve recognition cause they lack accomplishments

 

[Ghafhi]

understood..for sure. lets just keep it light..these threads on this stuff start getting mean quick.(im guilty of it as well) the points for more african civs are very valid, but in all honesty, who from the 18 do you remove? i really dont think you can with out cuasing an even BIGGER up roar. its got nothing to do with race or ignorance...remember..Market market market, they are counting on most new players to be ignorant, and when the read the box and go.. "ohhhh look ghengis khan". i hate to say it.. but theres not alot of african civs that will sell the game. is it fair? no. but its business. it sucks yes. but what can we do about it. not a whole lot. these devolopers would have been better off making around 35 civs. but i think they knew that we would buy it anyway, and even after the extra effort for 17 more civs people would still be on here going "well _____ did this in _____ b.c better then_____"

The dutch or one of those bear drinking indian civs who dont do nothing. Ok maybe white guys aren't eupohoric about african civs but look what makes them know indians civ like mayans so much more. Most of the far-east and afro-asian civs are repeats

 

[10Seven]

The Dutch were not a major power in fact they had to hire mercenaries cause they have no army.

Given the size of the country, and the period through which it maintained a measure of ascendance, I think it innacurate to write it off - whether or not a nation had a standing army, or hired mercenaries seems to me irrelevant - the fact that they could hire mercenaries and, along with other factors, prevented the ultimate anexation of their territory seems highly suggestive.

I recall that the charge of racism can not only be applicable when a european speaks so of another 'colour' of the human race - though un-pc in many places, it is entirely possible for Indians, as a for instance, to be racist.

It seems in no way useful to be arguing in such a manner.

 

[Ghafhi]

Africa has had a minor impact on the history of the world, compared to Europe and Asia. The civs that did make a major difference in history that are from Africa are in Civ 4. I don't see the problem here.

People like you who are ignorant to african history and history in general. Other than the Aztec no native indian culture has done much. There aren't alot of native players. why are they there. I would argue that asia until recently has done nothing with the exception of the japanese

 

[Ghafhi]

Well, using your own post as an example here, it demonstrates that the Ethiopian government has had an awful hard time staying in one place for very long, wonder why that is?

Forcibly incorporating other peoples into ones' nation is a common enough occurance as well. Wonder why Southern and Western Ethiopia refused to recognize their rightful rulers in Addis Ababa, though?

All kidding aside, you state no significant accomplishments of the Ethiopian people that have done anything to shape the world as we know it. Are they responsible for some great scientific advance? Did they develop a lasting religion or way of philisophic thought? Did their method of society, government, or architecture ever influence other great nations? Was their military or tactics ever world renowned as the Roman Legions or the Greek Hoplites were? Outside of their part of the Horn of Africa, did they ever exert a great amount of influence or possess some political weight?

History says no. At best, their princesses were sought after as brides or concubines by their northern neighbors during ancient times for their exotic beauty, and Ethiopia was considered an out of the way haven for Christian religious crusades on the holy land. Not much there to recommend them to replace Portugal, the Dutch, or Austria, quite honestly.

Yes, let Ethiopia in as a potential expansion race for gameplay and greater diversity, but it is certainly not the equal of any of the civilizations Ghafhi wants replaced.

And Sark, you're welcome.

The fact that it is the oldest country in the world and the non white/european country to be included in the league of nations is testament alone to the great empire of ethiopia. Europeans who were laregly racist in the 1920's and 30's were willing to recognize this country and its sovereignty after it beat so many of these "great" irreplaceable civs. My recommendation is take out the dutch not for africa but because they have no world power or voice in history. I say take out a repeat far-east civ like mesotopians or sumerians which are all persians and replace it with an african one like ethiopia. I don't this will upset to many people because 1. they are repeats and 2. No one in Iran is allowed to play video games anyways so no one will care.

 

[Ghafhi]

Given the size of the country, and the period through which it maintained a measure of ascendance, I think it innacurate to write it off - whether or not a nation had a standing army, or hired mercenaries seems to me irrelevant - the fact that they could hire mercenaries and, along with other factors, prevented the ultimate anexation of their territory seems highly suggestive.

I recall that the charge of racism can not only be applicable when a european speaks so of another 'colour' of the human race - though un-pc in many places, it is entirely possible for Indians, as a for instance, to be racist.

It seems in no way useful to be arguing in such a manner.

maybe i went to far but natives don't play civs and video games are illegal in persia not to mention the ayatollah won't let them in. So why not remove a repaet persian civ

 

[SuperBeaverInc.]

Lets face it the Dutch have no culture no history no nothing. The only thing the Dutch have historically is prostitues and legal mary j. Zulus only were big but never had much of a great civlization themselves at leats they had military stregth though. As a civlization the Dutch bring nothing. No military no culture. Now Austria makes sense or even Belgium but the Dutch really have not a thing when comes to civs.

Let me see you justify Belgium over the Dutch.

I am saying that dutch don't deserve recognition cause they lack accomplishments

Did you even bother to read doronron's post? Let me repost it, because obviously you didn't

"Let's see. They created the East India Company and was one of the first major powers to open asia up to european trade. The founded a string of strategic trading posts throughout India, South Africa, and Southeast Asia, many of those colonies were still under their control well into the 20th century. Their naval knowledge was extensive, eclipsing that of the portugese, and were among the first european nations to successfully navigate the pacific, opening Japan up for trade during the Sengoku period. Dutch rutters were highly prized, considered state secrets. Dutch navigators could command a king's ransom for any expedition. Militarily, they were able to revolt from the Spanish at the height of Spain's empire and form their own nation. Combined with their skillful use of trade and powerful navy, they catipulted themselves from euro-trash vassals to a world power within the span of a single ruler's lifetime. In art, many of the great "Old Masters" are Dutch, creating some of the finest paintings the world over. Ever hear of Rembrandt?"

Most of the far-east and afro-asian civs are repeats

Show me just one Far-East civ that is a repeat of another in the game.

Other than the Aztec no native indian culture has done much. There aren't alot of native players

How about the complex Incan road system? Or their mass riches? Or the large empire they managed to create? It doesn't necessarily matter that there aren't alot of native players. How many Babylonians, Sumerians, Hittites, Incans, Zulu, Carthaginians, Celts, Vikings, Mongols, Mayans, Aztecs, Iroquois, or Byzantines do you think play Civ III?

I would argue that asia until recently has done nothing with the exception of the japanese

Apparently you have never heard of China. And what about those Mongols? Only establishing the world's largest land empire.

 

[CTM]

Well, using your own post as an example here, it demonstrates that the Ethiopian government has had an awful hard time staying in one place for very long, wonder why that is?

Forcibly incorporating other peoples into ones' nation is a common enough occurance as well. Wonder why Southern and Western Ethiopia refused to recognize their rightful rulers in Addis Ababa, though?

All kidding aside, you state no significant accomplishments of the Ethiopian people that have done anything to shape the world as we know it. Are they responsible for some great scientific advance? Did they develop a lasting religion or way of philisophic thought? Did their method of society, government, or architecture ever influence other great nations? Was their military or tactics ever world renowned as the Roman Legions or the Greek Hoplites were? Outside of their part of the Horn of Africa, did they ever exert a great amount of influence or possess some political weight?

History says no. At best, their princesses were sought after as brides or concubines by their northern neighbors during ancient times for their exotic beauty, and Ethiopia was considered an out of the way haven for Christian religious crusades on the holy land. Not much there to recommend them to replace Portugal, the Dutch, or Austria, quite honestly.

Yes, let Ethiopia in as a potential expansion race for gameplay and greater diversity, but it is certainly not the equal of any of the civilizations Ghafhi wants replaced.

Good to see someone else here has some sense. This is what I tried saying earlier, but people chose to overlook all the important points made to restate their own (actually, regarding Ethiopia I was completely ignored), which if they had bothered to examine would have realized had just been shredded by the post they responded to.

It's all about a certain civilization or tribe being one man's champion. He loves them so much, he wants to see them in the game, he comes up with reasons why they should be. They don't have to make total sense, they just have to stand up to reason to himself and to anyone who doesn't care enough to look beneath the surface.

 

[Superkrest]

People like you who are ignorant to african history and history in general. Other than the Aztec no native indian culture has done much. There aren't alot of native players. why are they there. I would argue that asia until recently has done nothing with the exception of the japanese

wow,..i was on the same page as you untill you showed your equall amount of ignorance. I understand that i know little about african civs but i do enough to know that they do deserve some repersentation..but not as much as you stated. as far as the indians..i take great offense to the beer drinking coment..you complain about sterotyping and ignorance..and there you go. i do agree that many african civs have done more then alot of amer-indian civs. but lets see...great zimbabwa vs. technoticlan, or cuzco? i dunno ...seems to me i know the winner...i can name 3 major american players..thats about the same as major(with exception of north africans) civs from africa..the situation of the two continents is very very simular. north amrica, like southern africa has vast amounts of lesser tribes with great civs poping up out of now where. and the iriqois nations capital(in upstate new york) was the largest city in the new world at the time... and as far as asians....the chinease have had a rediculose long civ, to ignore there importance(GUNPOWEDER) would just be odd. once again...i wish that we could all agree that more civs are needed with beter rep from all continents ...but i really cant stand placing importance over another in a race for wich race is better...the nazi's did that and look how that turned out.... i by no means am trying to instigate a fight. id really like to agree about africa but also remind you that fraxis has to place money on civs that would sell. no two ways about it..if in an expansion there are no other african civs. i will be right there behind you(and the turkey guys lol.)

 

[Civrules]

Moderator Action: Just so this thread doesn't go astray, stop the personal insults and discuss the topic.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[doronron]

People like you who are ignorant to african history and history in general. Other than the Aztec no native indian culture has done much. There aren't alot of native players. why are they there. I would argue that asia until recently has done nothing with the exception of the japanese

The fact that it is the oldest country in the world and the non white/european country to be included in the league of nations is testament alone to the great empire of ethiopia. Europeans who were laregly racist in the 1920's and 30's were willing to recognize this country and its sovereignty after it beat so many of these "great" irreplaceable civs. My recommendation is take out the dutch not for africa but because they have no world power or voice in history. I say take out a repeat far-east civ like mesotopians or sumerians which are all persians and replace it with an african one like ethiopia. I don't this will upset to many people because 1. they are repeats and 2. No one in Iran is allowed to play video games anyways so no one will care.

Let's kill a few birds with one stone here.

China began as a nation in 2200 BC. Your assertion that the Ethiopian empire lasted for 3000 years, and then claim it's the oldest country in the world is false. To top that, China is responsible for philisophical advances such as Confucianism, the military legacy of Sun Tzu, Great Wonders such as the clay army, gunpowder, rocketry, clocks. Their basic goods were sought after as a great prize, since ancient Rome. They possessed a true civilization with roads, a stable and active government, and a secure dynasty. Rome, Egypt, Greece, Carthage, Sumer, and Babylon all fell during that nation's existance. China was a viable power with the same government intact when Germany, France, and Britain dug themselves out of the Dark Ages. That same Dynasty continued to survive the depradations of European imperialism when Africa (including Ethiopia) was carved up and the Americas struggled to throw off the European yoke. Only when the warlords broke the empire and the Chinese Emporer was duped into being a Japanese puppet did that nation fall.

Japan's Empire began in 300 AD, and can trace it's imperial legacy from that point on to the current emporer. Japan is renowned for creating some of the finest swords ever made. Japan's cultural background is eaully strong, if not stronger than much of the rest of Asia. They were the only Asian nation to resist European dominance and Imperialism. Japanese history is filled with great military leaders ranging from Nobunaga to the more recent Yamamoto. They isolated themselves and kept European intervention at bay from the 1500s all the way to the 1850s when the American Admiral Perry forced their borders open. Then Japan did something no other nation has ever accomplished. They forcefully modernized themselves, going from swords and wooden armor to ironclads and repeating rifles in less than 50 years. During this time, they managed to maintain their cultural sovereignty. They proved themselves in the Russo Japanese war of 1905 and shattered the myth that Europe was invincible and meant to be the masters of the modern world. Japan only rose from there, actively participating in the Imperialist trend by carving out portions of China and annexing Korea. Japan's militaristic might grew to dangerous extremes as it sought to dominate all of China during the 1930s and conducted a lightning naval campaign during the 1940s that lead to the fall of many of the strongest colonial holdings the British and Dutch possesed in the Pacific. It took Britain, India, a unified China, and the United States to finally stop them.

China and Japan, by the way were both a part of the League of Nations, and I do believe they're not white!

You choose to ignore the fact that the Dutch built themselves a merchant empire that spread from South America to South Africa to India and the East Indies, despite it's "small size" and being trapped between three much larger powers. You choose to ignore the fact that many of the world's greatest paintings and much of the world's cartography came from Dutch hands. You choose to ignore the fact that though the Dutch may have hired army mercenaries, they would have needed wealth and power to maintain that army.

Ethiopia, despite its larger land mass, never had the wealth nor power the Dutch possessed to even defeat Eritrea, that small thorn that keeps much of the coastlines on the Red Sea from falling to Ethiopian Soveriegnty. Ethiopia has never carved a colonial empire, nor provided much in the way of art, nor contributed much to science or exploration. The Dutch have.

And by the way, name the European powers that were defeated by Ethiopia. Name the wars. List the dates.

I also have a feeling that a number of Middle Easterners (also not white!) would take offense to you lumping them all together and considering their opinion about their own cultures not worth much.

Again, I would have no problem for the Ethiopians to be in the game, but your method of their inclusion and reasoning behind such is both flawed and offensive. Get your facts straight.

 

[Superkrest]

here here. but the basic fact exsists...who would you remove from the list of 18 to include another african civ? i love my native american civs ...but i cant think of anyone on that that list that is worthy of replacing with the souix(just for example sake)

 

[doronron]

Good to see someone else here has some sense. This is what I tried saying earlier, but people chose to overlook all the important points made to restate their own (actually, regarding Ethiopia I was completely ignored), which if they had bothered to examine would have realized had just been shredded by the post they responded to.

It's all about a certain civilization or tribe being one man's champion. He loves them so much, he wants to see them in the game, he comes up with reasons why they should be. They don't have to make total sense, they just have to stand up to reason to himself and to anyone who doesn't care enough to look beneath the surface.

That tends to happen in internet arguments, unfortunately. Especially ones involving video games or any form of pop culture.

It's a moot point. The game ships with the tools necessary to edit it. Even if Ethiopia's not included, he can just as easily mod it in. And there's always the possiblity of multiple expansion packs. There's a good chance more African nations can be included then.

 

[doronron]

here here. but the basic fact exsists...who would you remove from the list of 18 to include another african civ? i love my native american civs ...but i cant think of anyone on that that list that is worthy of replacing with the souix(just for example sake)

I agree. None of the nations listed should be removed. They all aided in making the world what it is today. Just add to it. There's plenty of room and a good chance some of these nations will make their way into future expansion packs. If not, the tools will exist to add nations ourselves.

 

[Sark6354201]

Ghafhi, go read some history books. Your arguments are pathetic..

Moderator Action: Did you see the warning I gave above? Take it into consideration. I'm sure this conversation can continue in a civilized manner even when people disagree with each other.

 

[Ghafhi]

Let's kill a few birds with one stone here.

China began as a nation in 2200 BC. Your assertion that the Ethiopian empire lasted for 3000 years, and then claim it's the oldest country in the world is false. To top that, China is responsible for philisophical advances such as Confucianism, the military legacy of Sun Tzu, Great Wonders such as the clay army, gunpowder, rocketry, clocks. Their basic goods were sought after as a great prize, since ancient Rome. They possessed a true civilization with roads, a stable and active government, and a secure dynasty. Rome, Egypt, Greece, Carthage, Sumer, and Babylon all fell during that nation's existance. China was a viable power with the same government intact when Germany, France, and Britain dug themselves out of the Dark Ages. That same Dynasty continued to survive the depradations of European imperialism when Africa (including Ethiopia) was carved up and the Americas struggled to throw off the European yoke. Only when the warlords broke the empire and the Chinese Emporer was duped into being a Japanese puppet did that nation fall.

Japan's Empire began in 300 AD, and can trace it's imperial legacy from that point on to the current emporer. Japan is renowned for creating some of the finest swords ever made. Japan's cultural background is eaully strong, if not stronger than much of the rest of Asia. They were the only Asian nation to resist European dominance and Imperialism. Japanese history is filled with great military leaders ranging from Nobunaga to the more recent Yamamoto. They isolated themselves and kept European intervention at bay from the 1500s all the way to the 1850s when the American Admiral Perry forced their borders open. Then Japan did something no other nation has ever accomplished. They forcefully modernized themselves, going from swords and wooden armor to ironclads and repeating rifles in less than 50 years. During this time, they managed to maintain their cultural sovereignty. They proved themselves in the Russo Japanese war of 1905 and shattered the myth that Europe was invincible and meant to be the masters of the modern world. Japan only rose from there, actively participating in the Imperialist trend by carving out portions of China and annexing Korea. Japan's militaristic might grew to dangerous extremes as it sought to dominate all of China during the 1930s and conducted a lightning naval campaign during the 1940s that lead to the fall of many of the strongest colonial holdings the British and Dutch possesed in the Pacific. It took Britain, India, a unified China, and the United States to finally stop them.

China and Japan, by the way were both a part of the League of Nations, and I do believe they're not white!

You choose to ignore the fact that the Dutch built themselves a merchant empire that spread from South America to South Africa to India and the East Indies, despite it's "small size" and being trapped between three much larger powers. You choose to ignore the fact that many of the world's greatest paintings and much of the world's cartography came from Dutch hands. You choose to ignore the fact that though the Dutch may have hired army mercenaries, they would have needed wealth and power to maintain that army.

Ethiopia, despite its larger land mass, never had the wealth nor power the Dutch possessed to even defeat Eritrea, that small thorn that keeps much of the coastlines on the Red Sea from falling to Ethiopian Soveriegnty. Ethiopia has never carved a colonial empire, nor provided much in the way of art, nor contributed much to science or exploration. The Dutch have.

And by the way, name the European powers that were defeated by Ethiopia. Name the wars. List the dates.

I also have a feeling that a number of Middle Easterners (also not white!) would take offense to you lumping them all together and considering their opinion about their own cultures not worth much.

Again, I would have no problem for the Ethiopians to be in the game, but your method of their inclusion and reasoning behind such is both flawed and offensive. Get your facts straight.

Actually you are the one who is wrong I said ethiopia has lasted 3000 but that did not mean it didn't exist before then. If I say America has lasted 50 years there is nothing incorrect with that statement, it is absoulutuley true. America existed 50 years ago, however this does not limit the exist of america to 50 years as you would like to believe. Same argument for Ethiopia, which as actually called axum back then. I probably for forgot china or was in a rush when I wrote that. I'm sure they did alot of stuff. Also Ethiopia was not colonized as you said that is false. Actually I did say Japan did alot of stuff. they are in the g8. The world greatest painters I beleive were Italians mostly not dutch. Ethiopia didn't need to inslave people to make money like the Dutch. The Dutch had mostly small insignifcant colonies like aruba. Eritrea was its country until europe forced into ethiopia who fought a reluctant war. Most of the Dutch colonies were lost in war a insignifcant in size.

The Persian nations and sub-nations. They are all just a break off sect of the persians big deal.

 

[Superkrest]

ive totally lost the disire to argue this point ...half truths dont make you right...im really tired of the whos who...ethopia has never been a world player..maybe as nubia(EONS AGO). nor have they ever built a massive cultral base..but they do still deserve to be in the game as an EXPANSION civ...the dutch are not on the 18 civ list..so who cares what they did or didnt do..pick a civ worth REPLACING for the game and you'll have a valid argument