Typhoon of Steel - Version 3

[Misfit_travel]

In the TOS v3 game I only build 1 additional paratrooper. I needed the tanks and planes way more......

I did however cheat and use my paratroopers to garrison Pearl Harbour after I took it. That gave me 5 fairly strong defensive units right after the city fell (which I also think is bogus).

I think airlift is pretty much broken in CIV3. Either get rid of it completely, or change the paratrooper unit to make it more expensive. I think what you say in the game against El_Tigre was not representative of typical multiplayer.

You may also wish to make two types of paratroopers; Allied and Japanese. Japanese should be something like 6-5, with allied paratroopers being something like 7-6. When I think about it why would a paratrooper be stronger defensively than a regular infantry unit. They are after all dropped behind the lines, which severely limits the type of heavy equipment they can carry. Model them after the regular infantry units.

My two cents.

Misfit

 

[eric_A]

AA Cruiser: I wasn't able to build one (my first Adv. Destroyer just left the
dock when the game ended), but their ADM values seems to be a bit weak. I
guess their main purpose it to be stacked with transports to defend them
against air strikes, but still...

The AA cruiser has an anitaircraft rating of 2, that is their whole
reason to exist. The only other units with that high a rating are
the the fast BB (AA 3) and super BB (AA 2), which are far more expensive.
They are cheap and fast floating AA batteries and that is exactly what I
intended them to be.

 

[El_Tigre]

Are you going to tinker with governments? If so, I would suggest decreasing the
draft rate for Japan (and perhaps for China, too) to 1 unit per turn, and increase
the unhappiness due to drafting. IMO, drafted Nipponese Infantry and Artillery
can defeat China too quickly; and most games end with all mainland cities under
Japanese control.

If you want to boost the Australian production, you could decrease corruption
for the CW. Especially western Australia looses a lot of shields to waste. Maybe
create a new goverment, constitutional monarchy? Or change it to republic,
which would get rid of the military police for the CW, too.

Are you going to start a new PBEM soon, eric_A? My own PBEM got delayed
again, so if you need another player...

 

[eric_A]

El Tigre:
I may do some work on the governments in version 4.

Right now I am working on version 3.05 which fixes some
of the problems we encountered in the V3.02 test plus some
other minor changes. I will post a document here soon summarizing
the changes.

I expect V3.05 to be ready in about a week and then launch another
test game. Your participation wouuld be most welcome. I would
like to also find a third person so we can have one player for Japan,
one for US-China and the third for Commonwealth+Dutch.

I think I would like to try the CW-Dutch this time, you can take your
pick of the remaining powers.

 

[Misfit_travel]

I'm game as well for the beta......

Misfit

 

[aksully]

Coming in a little late on this but Eric...what a fantastic job you have done! I just discovered TOS this am. Have been pretty tied up with Rocoteh's WWII Global. I actually had been working slowly on modifying the original War in the Pacific to create a more realistic scenario. But I'm stopping now as you hit a home run with your efforts! A big plus I see is adding some of Wyrmshadow's great unit creations. He is a master! But I just wanted to say you really did a fine job. I've just completed reading through all the posts and find them right on in content. I only have one comment regarding your text file. In it you mention taking the transport function away from DD's as being over-rated in C3C (agree). But disagree in terms of significance especially related to Japanese use of DD's as troop transports. The Tokoyo Express made heavy use of DD's a fast transports. But you may be right in removing the capability overall as it might be hard to reflect the pros and cons of using DD's as transports. Unless you created a new unit which might not be that worthwhile. I quess you could give Jap DD's one transport value. But you would also have to reduce its fighting capability since the decks were crammed with troops. Anyhow, a minor detail and by no means a criticism! As I have a lot of time on my hands...I will be messing with this alot!

Well Done Eric!

Sully

 

[El_Tigre]

I expect V3.05 to be ready in about a week and then launch another
test game. Your participation wouuld be most welcome. I would
like to also find a third person so we can have one player for Japan,
one for US-China and the third for Commonwealth+Dutch.

I think I would like to try the CW-Dutch this time, you can take your
pick of the remaining powers.

Great! I would prefer to play one of the Allied powers next time, without preference for a special civ.

 

[Misfit_travel]

<snip> I only have one comment regarding your text file. In it you mention taking the transport function away from DD's as being over-rated in C3C (agree). But disagree in terms of significance especially related to Japanese use of DD's as troop transports. The Tokoyo Express made heavy use of DD's a fast transports. But you may be right in removing the capability overall as it might be hard to reflect the pros and cons of using DD's as transports. Unless you created a new unit which might not be that worthwhile. I quess you could give Jap DD's one transport value. But you would also have to reduce its fighting capability since the decks were crammed with troops.
Sully

Interesting idea, but the scale of the map would create major problems with a faster transport unit. One of the key things I like about TOS is that it eliminates some of the more bogus aspects of Firaxis' scenario. Allowing even 1 more movement point would open up a Pandora's box of problems.

In the Firaxis WWII Pacific scenario the Japanese player can take out Manilla on Turn 1, wiping out virtually all of the US Phillipines navy without committing a single air unit. Other locations on the map are equally susceptible to single unit marine captures, followed by other unit penetrations. (ie capture the city with a marine, then exploit it by loading a tank on a DD, landing in the city and moving the tank inland). Its too easy to penetrate too quickly.

I think it would be an interesting idea, but if it were to be implemented, it would have to be as a DD unit with the same MPs as the transport unit. (ie some form of Destroyer Escort type unit).

DDs with transport capacity are game breakers.

Misfit

 

[eric_A]

Coming in a little late on this but Eric...what a fantastic job you have done! I just discovered TOS this am. Have been pretty tied up with Rocoteh's WWII Global. I actually had been working slowly on modifying the original War in the Pacific to create a more realistic scenario. But I'm stopping now as you hit a home run with your efforts! A big plus I see is adding some of Wyrmshadow's great unit creations. He is a master! But I just wanted to say you really did a fine job. I've just completed reading through all the posts and find them right on in content. I only have one comment regarding your text file. In it you mention taking the transport function away from DD's as being over-rated in C3C (agree). But disagree in terms of significance especially related to Japanese use of DD's as troop transports. The Tokoyo Express made heavy use of DD's a fast transports. But you may be right in removing the capability overall as it might be hard to reflect the pros and cons of using DD's as transports. Unless you created a new unit which might not be that worthwhile. I quess you could give Jap DD's one transport value. But you would also have to reduce its fighting capability since the decks were crammed with troops. Anyhow, a minor detail and by no means a criticism! As I have a lot of time on my hands...I will be messing with this alot!

Well Done Eric!

Sully

Thanks for your comments and suggestion Sully.

It might be a good idea to have a destroyer-transport which becomes
available with the naval tactics tech. That way it would not be
available for Japan's initial invasion, but could be used by mid '42 when
the Guadalcanal campagain started. It could have a transport
capacity of 1 and be slighty slower and have lower combat factors than
the regular destroyer. I will try to work this into version 4.

Are you interested in getting into a PBEM test with myself and El_Tigre?

 

[aksully]

I am indeed!

Sully

 

[LouLong]

One thing that really needs some work (if possible) is the pedia. In the last PBEM it was really a pain at the beginning to know what was what,... I lost some turns in my most productive cities building Being Aircraft for nothing...

 

[eric_A]

One thing that really needs some work (if possible) is the pedia. In the last PBEM it was really a pain at the beginning to know what was what,... I lost some turns in my most productive cities building Being Aircraft for nothing...

Loulong:
I finished the version 3 'pedia after we started that game, so if you
download the big file again, you will get an updated 'pedia. Although
I did notice that the entry for the US fleet sub was missing.

 

[eric_A]

I am indeed!

Sully

We need someone to play Japan. It will be a 3 player game with me as
the Commonwealth+Dutch and El_Tigre as the US+china. WE will be
starting in about one week when the version 3.05 is ready.

 

[aksully]

I'll be glad to motivate the Sons of Nippon onward towards victory! In the meantime I'll get up to speed on the game mechanics and will be ready to roll when 3.05 is ready to test!

Sully

 

[El_Tigre]

I only have one comment regarding your text file. In it you
mention taking the transport function away from DD's as being over-rated in
C3C (agree). But disagree in terms of significance especially related to
Japanese use of DD's as troop transports. The Tokoyo Express made heavy
use of DD's a fast transports. But you may be right in removing the capability
overall as it might be hard to reflect the pros and cons of using DD's as
transports. Unless you created a new unit which might not be that
worthwhile. I quess you could give Jap DD's one transport value. But you
would also have to reduce its fighting capability since the decks were
crammed with troops.

Speaking of the Tokyo Express:

Has there ever been a pbem with heavy warfare in the Solomon Islands
region? This area was the main theatre of war in 1942/43, but I haven't seen
many land battles on Guadalcanal, Rabaul and the surrounding islands. The
problem is that it is too far away from the Japanese and American production
centers. It takes ages from a transport from Japan to reach Rabaul. As far as
I can see, the usual course of action is this: Japan takes Rabaul and perhaps
Guadalcanal with units from Truk (unless several transports are sunk by US
subs in the region ), then the offensive stalls, because CW boosts
the defenses of Port Moresby and Japan cannot reinforce the local troops
quickly. There isn't much to win in that area anyway, just another VP
location or two (perhaps you could add another VP location at Tulagi). Rather
than being the hotspot of the early war, the area is a backwater...

At first I thought along the same lines as aksully (create a fast transport for
Japan), but I realized that this would influence all other theatres of war, too.
In the V3.01 pbem I decided to reflate the Japanese offensive with
Paratroopers, which attacked and occupied Port Moresby and Guadalcanal.
That's the reason why I'm irresolute about removing their airlift ability:
Paratroopers are the only way to initiate quick land offensives far away from
production centers.

At the moment, the only other solution I can offer would be to make Truk an
important center of production, either by using a unit producing wonder (Fleet
Headquarter) or a resource that increases shield output, so that Japan can
build stuff without rush buing everything (remember the Transport and the
Marine that took your airbase next to Kwajalein, eric_A? ) It's not elegant,
but I have the feeling that there is too much focus on China and too little
warfare around Guadalcanal.

Just my two cents.

 

[Misfit_travel]

Should you be able to get another player, why not run two betas? I'd like to try US / China in that one.....

Misfit

 

[eric_A]

Should you be able to get another player, why not run two betas? I'd like to try US / China in that one.....

Misfit

I'll play Japan in the "other" test game. Anyone want to join Misfit and
take the Commonwealth+Dutch?

I'll change the player order so that China goes after the USA that should
speed things up a bit.

 

[eric_A]

Speaking of the Tokyo Express:

Has there ever been a pbem with heavy warfare in the Solomon Islands
region? This area was the main theatre of war in 1942/43, but I haven't seen
many land battles on Guadalcanal, Rabaul and the surrounding islands. The
problem is that it is too far away from the Japanese and American production
centers. It takes ages from a transport from Japan to reach Rabaul. As far as
I can see, the usual course of action is this: Japan takes Rabaul and perhaps
Guadalcanal with units from Truk (unless several transports are sunk by US
subs in the region ), then the offensive stalls, because CW boosts
the defenses of Port Moresby and Japan cannot reinforce the local troops
quickly. There isn't much to win in that area anyway, just another VP
location or two (perhaps you could add another VP location at Tulagi). Rather
than being the hotspot of the early war, the area is a backwater...

At first I thought along the same lines as aksully (create a fast transport for
Japan), but I realized that this would influence all other theatres of war, too.
In the V3.01 pbem I decided to reflate the Japanese offensive with
Paratroopers, which attacked and occupied Port Moresby and Guadalcanal.
That's the reason why I'm irresolute about removing their airlift ability:
Paratroopers are the only way to initiate quick land offensives far away from
production centers.

At the moment, the only other solution I can offer would be to make Truk an
important center of production, either by using a unit producing wonder (Fleet
Headquarter) or a resource that increases shield output, so that Japan can
build stuff without rush buing everything (remember the Transport and the
Marine that took your airbase next to Kwajalein, eric_A? ) It's not elegant,
but I have the feeling that there is too much focus on China and too little
warfare around Guadalcanal.

Just my two cents.

El_Tigre:

Japan starts the scenario with a lot of marines on Truk so they
have quite a few strategic options. One thing I should have done
is move the starting location of the allied subs back a little further
so that the Truk forces get to move on the first turn without being
blown out of the water. I will do this in V3.05.

You are right, I think I will add a couple more VP locations in or
around the Solomons.

I am going to remove airlift but extend the range for paratroops, so they
can still hop from island to island by making a series of drops, It's
the best compromise I can think of.

In version 3.05 I am giving Noumea and the airfield at Espiritu Santos to the
US. This will give them some presence in the South Pacific. These were
free French colonies and they were used extensively by the US during
the Solomons battles. Espiritu was a B-17 base and Noumea was used
as a port by Halsey's fleet.

 

[Misfit_travel]

El_Tigre:

Japan starts the scenario with a lot of marines on Truk so they
have quite a few strategic options. One thing I should have done
is move the starting location of the allied subs back a little further
so that the Truk forces get to move on the first turn without being
blown out of the water. I will do this in V3.05.

You are right, I think I will add a couple more VP locations in or
around the Solomons.

I am going to remove airlift but extend the range for paratroops, so they
can still hop from island to island by making a series of drops, It's
the best compromise I can think of.

In version 3.05 I am giving Noumea and the airfield at Espiritu Santos to the
US. This will give them some presence in the South Pacific. These were
free French colonies and they were used extensively by the US during
the Solomons battles. Espiritu was a B-17 base and Noumea was used
as a port by Halsey's fleet.

Interesting idea. I can honestly say that I pay zero attention to the Solomons in the game's I've played previously. I didn't need the VP locations, and the expose risk to the Japanese player was too high to justify. It was easier to just pound the crap out of China. If you add some VP locations to Solomons, consider removing one from China (I'd suggest getting rid of Sian).

Extending the range of paratroops should be a good compromise. You just have to make sure there are sufficient airfields available. I'd suggest adding a couple more empty airfields on some of the smaller islands in the chain. This will spread out both sides trying to cover off bases (or force them both to spend resources trying to blow them up to deny the other side).

Consider adding a worker unit with paradrop capability (or adding paradrop to seabees unit). That would allow a military drop, with civilian workforce, build a new airbase on available terrain, then drop again. It could have some tactical benefits in the tight terrain around the Solomons. (ie, you could island hop with marines / transports, risking your ships against subs, or you could island hop with paratroops, exposing your men to aeral bombardment). Adds another dimension to the campaign.

Misfit

 

[Misfit_travel]

It might be a good idea to have a destroyer-transport which becomes
available with the naval tactics tech. That way it would not be
available for Japan's initial invasion, but could be used by mid '42 when
the Guadalcanal campagain started. It could have a transport
capacity of 1 and be slighty slower and have lower combat factors than
the regular destroyer. I will try to work this into version 4.

I still think Truk needs greater build capability for this to be effective. It takes forever for any naval / air unit to be built there.

Misfit