Tyrant Celts - 100 K Emperor
- Thread starter Crakie
- Start date
Crakie
Soupnazi
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2004
- Messages
- 527
Well, it's bad... very bad. I'm pretty sure we could have taken Japan, but both the Mongols and the Indians broke the alliance and made peace. And worse... a lone Babylion spearman headed for a former chinese city and a massive stack of knights appeared in Japanese territory, clearly heading for us.
I took an additional 2 Japanese cities, allied the babs for an insane amount of gpt, but I knew the AI would declare on us anyway. I've never seen the AI change its mind. So I figured we wouldn't lose any money over it and the Japanese would absorp some of the Babylonian troops. This is also what happened. The Babs declared on us and I made peace with Japan. It will be difficult to hold our cities in former Japanese territory nonetheless.
I took an additional 2 Japanese cities, allied the babs for an insane amount of gpt, but I knew the AI would declare on us anyway. I've never seen the AI change its mind. So I figured we wouldn't lose any money over it and the Japanese would absorp some of the Babylonian troops. This is also what happened. The Babs declared on us and I made peace with Japan. It will be difficult to hold our cities in former Japanese territory nonetheless.
Marc Aurel
Philosopher Emperor
Crakie said:
Yeah, you have some good arguments at hand there. I am still not sure, what is best. What Bede meant was the fact, that only buildings, that are older than 1000 years double their culture value. Since we will finish somewhere around 1750 -will come relatively fast to the point when you have built all culture improvements in your cities. Since we are religious we can also rush cathedrals, as if they were libraries. But after temple, lib, Cathedral, Colosseum, University there is nothing left to do for us besides :
ICSing!!!
Get close to the domination limit!!!
getting the research labs. (very late for 2 cpt each)
build wonders (not very effective)
However the later effect of the doubled culture is enormous. We had more than 230 cpt at 750 AD, so we will make them to 430 cpt in the end and that's quite a lot. However grabbing the land not fast enough, may also have cost 200 cpt (around 16 cities)maybe more (around 25 cities or so) The stroke at the japs however was motivated by the fact, that you can't win culture 100K as long as one single AI civ has at least a little bit more than half your culture. So we do not only need to build up our own culture, but have to hinder any vast cultured AI from coming close to 50 K. And the japs were on even culture level with us. So better do it now than later. But there are still culturally advanced civs around, so the problem lives on. OTOH I think we can manage the babylonian invasion, even if I admit that it will be hard. Problem is, we still haven't got enough land for ICSing
The Roster
Bahzell : got it
classical hero: on deck
Marc Aurel : smacked Toku around.
MadViking : Held his ground
Crakie : Allied with Hammi only to have him backstab us, Chatted with Toku and signed a peace treaty.
crazybeard : should be back on board soon.
Bahzell : got it
classical hero: on deck
Marc Aurel : smacked Toku around.
MadViking : Held his ground
Crakie : Allied with Hammi only to have him backstab us, Chatted with Toku and signed a peace treaty.
crazybeard : should be back on board soon.
Crakie
Soupnazi
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2004
- Messages
- 527
@Marc: Yes, the 1000 year bonus is good and since 'time' goes fast in the early stages of the game, you easily reach a few 1000 year thresholds, but I still think we should have refrained from culture in our core and even the former Chinese lands. The maintenaince is killing us, especially with the despotism restraint.
An all-out GS-Knight-Cavalry campaign would have yielded us much more land, perhaps even the domination limit. From then you may not get the 1000 year bonuses as much, but 200+ cities with a temple easily make up for that (I feel... I don't have experience enough).
An all-out GS-Knight-Cavalry campaign would have yielded us much more land, perhaps even the domination limit. From then you may not get the 1000 year bonuses as much, but 200+ cities with a temple easily make up for that (I feel... I don't have experience enough).
Marc Aurel
Philosopher Emperor
But that sounds like we are heading asymptothically to a culture infrastructure that is just by a small margin still affordable. There, it does not matter how large our land is, since the rest of the land besides the core is corrupt. But for that fixed amount the culture is still doubling, if it was built early. Problem would only have been if we wouldn’t have reached the economical barrier due to lack of land. But we are just heading towards it and there is still room for a couple of culture buildings. In each case we need the marketplaces, but warring Japan was also with respect to this better since part of the Japanese land is close enough to have an acceptable distance corruption. But when we are coming close to this affordable barrier, our science rate drops dramatically. Can we afford this? Can we rely on trading for techs – i.e. our luxes and resources? BTW the early culture only doubles. Even if it is more than 2000 years old the building still gives twice its normal culture.
Crakie
Soupnazi
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2004
- Messages
- 527
Doubling culture only once - got it. I don't quite understand what the rest of your point(s) are however, except that indeed my strategy would have an exponential culture curve.
Our situation now: not in control, sore economy, lagging in techs and may not be able to take on cultural rivals, but steadily generating culture.
My ideal scenario: take the world (or enough of it) with fast units while offensive units are at the advantage (until riflemen/infantry), complete control of the world and ideally The Pyramids, using ICS/Specialist to reach Communism quickly and rush culture like crazy at the dom limit (or whatever portion of the world we could take).
Our situation now: not in control, sore economy, lagging in techs and may not be able to take on cultural rivals, but steadily generating culture.
My ideal scenario: take the world (or enough of it) with fast units while offensive units are at the advantage (until riflemen/infantry), complete control of the world and ideally The Pyramids, using ICS/Specialist to reach Communism quickly and rush culture like crazy at the dom limit (or whatever portion of the world we could take).
lurker's comment: Still watching with interest. Taking on the Japanese was the same direction Team Bede took in the SGOTM. They proved, as you discovered, a very tough nut to crack. Had I to do it all over again I would have worked westward rather than eastward. Taking down the Chinese, the Mongol, then Carthage, then the Iro, then the Japanese.
The other thing I would have done is way more exploration and used whatever influence I could bring to bear to get the rest of the world to pile onto one another. The best way to slow down culture monsters is embroil them in war, unending war, while cleaning up the weaklings for addition to the Celtic empire.
Keep it up though, and remember, don't spare the whip!!! Temple building is the bedrock of the game plan, and temples are cheap for the Celts.
Hello guys,
I also played the original game, which was brutally time consuming and cured me from any temptation to try 100k again.
I see that you have identified that the key to success is getting to the dom limit, building lots of towns and whipping ruthlessly. In our game we used Gallic swords very extensively to conquer. If you do the calculations you will find that they are better than knights to use in this game (10 shield warrior and upgrade= lots of GS), and we avoided learning feudalism for a long time so we could keep building them. As Crakie says the Pyramids are crucial. Trying (unsucessfully) to build it ourselves dominated our teams plan, and having failed to build it we made a concerted attempt to take it (although not concerted enough for some of our team). I don't think we ever got round to taking out the Mongols.
I also played the original game, which was brutally time consuming and cured me from any temptation to try 100k again.
I see that you have identified that the key to success is getting to the dom limit, building lots of towns and whipping ruthlessly. In our game we used Gallic swords very extensively to conquer. If you do the calculations you will find that they are better than knights to use in this game (10 shield warrior and upgrade= lots of GS), and we avoided learning feudalism for a long time so we could keep building them. As Crakie says the Pyramids are crucial. Trying (unsucessfully) to build it ourselves dominated our teams plan, and having failed to build it we made a concerted attempt to take it (although not concerted enough for some of our team). I don't think we ever got round to taking out the Mongols.
Well as Crakie said, its bad. Babs with their Cavalry backed military tore thru our Japanese held territory and left us with 2 cities when I finally got Hammi to the table to get a peace treaty. But before I did that he dragged Liz, Hannibal, Mao and Abe into the war against us. On my last turn I got Hannibal to the table and we signed a peace treaty. Made the wrong deal with Toku to get us Chemistry by giving him iron. Hammi took our 2nd iron and now we are stuck with spears till the deal with Toku is over.
Threat Assessment
Mao - No threat with 2 cities.
Able - could cause problems
Liz - She's going to cause us major problems if she has the resources for Cavalry.
Atm Liz has 1 musketman in our northern area trying to get to one of our cities to capture, but I got our GS's up there dancing to keep her from doing just that.
Research/Treasury
Metalluragy in 9. We're making 11gpt atm. can probably go up in sci if it won't break us to get Metalluragy sooner.
Future
We have hardly no defense and our offensive punch was basically annhilated by Hammi as it was used to defend our Jap held cities. We need to build more defense or we'll just keep losing cities. Lost 5 cities to Hannibal and retook 2 before I got peace treaty with him. Got us a couple Muskets before Hammi took our Saltpeter supply.
The Roster
classical hero: up
Marc Aurel : on deck
MadViking : Held his ground
Crakie : Allied with Hammi only to have him backstab us, Chatted with Toku and signed a peace treaty.
Bahzell : Got Hammi and Hannibal off our backs for the time being.
crazybeard : should be back on board soon.
I agree that we should have went after Genghis instead of Toku, but hind sight is 20/20 as they say and we can't change the past unless we restart from before we attacked Toku, but then that would be cheating.
Threat Assessment
Mao - No threat with 2 cities.
Able - could cause problems
Liz - She's going to cause us major problems if she has the resources for Cavalry.
Atm Liz has 1 musketman in our northern area trying to get to one of our cities to capture, but I got our GS's up there dancing to keep her from doing just that.
Research/Treasury
Metalluragy in 9. We're making 11gpt atm. can probably go up in sci if it won't break us to get Metalluragy sooner.
Future
We have hardly no defense and our offensive punch was basically annhilated by Hammi as it was used to defend our Jap held cities. We need to build more defense or we'll just keep losing cities. Lost 5 cities to Hannibal and retook 2 before I got peace treaty with him. Got us a couple Muskets before Hammi took our Saltpeter supply.
The Roster
classical hero: up
Marc Aurel : on deck
MadViking : Held his ground
Crakie : Allied with Hammi only to have him backstab us, Chatted with Toku and signed a peace treaty.
Bahzell : Got Hammi and Hannibal off our backs for the time being.
crazybeard : should be back on board soon.
I agree that we should have went after Genghis instead of Toku, but hind sight is 20/20 as they say and we can't change the past unless we restart from before we attacked Toku, but then that would be cheating.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
Where is the save? I cannot see it in the post.
Crakie
Soupnazi
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2004
- Messages
- 527
@Bahzell: I had the same problem. Strange, huh?!
I'm currenly playing a test game to see how effective the strategy I had in mind is. It's Celts on pangea emperor of course, with a 4 turner start, but the map is small so I wouldn't have to spend too much time on it. I refrained from any culture in the beginning, not even libraries. Core cities built only workers, barracks and military units (GS and knights). Corrupt cities built workers and settlers for a long time.
I played pretty sloppy, but it's 150 AD now and I am heading for the domination limit within the next 15 turns. This very turn, I switched the core to building cultural buildings and I am phasing out settler/worker production and starting to build temples in the semi-ICSed lands. In other words, I just started producing culture. Let's see what sort of end-date I will get
I'm currenly playing a test game to see how effective the strategy I had in mind is. It's Celts on pangea emperor of course, with a 4 turner start, but the map is small so I wouldn't have to spend too much time on it. I refrained from any culture in the beginning, not even libraries. Core cities built only workers, barracks and military units (GS and knights). Corrupt cities built workers and settlers for a long time.
I played pretty sloppy, but it's 150 AD now and I am heading for the domination limit within the next 15 turns. This very turn, I switched the core to building cultural buildings and I am phasing out settler/worker production and starting to build temples in the semi-ICSed lands. In other words, I just started producing culture. Let's see what sort of end-date I will get
classical_hero
In whom I trust
We are screwed.
Preturn. I make a deal with Hannibal so that we are not slaughtered of the face of the planet. I know it is a lot, but they have a big SoD that would have causing us to be shitting ourselves in our pants.
We do not have any Iron for our selves which is a bad thing. I do think that we cannot win this one, but now w must hink in a different way. I now thinking we need to go for bombardment as our main choice since this will be our best option, so I am going to get started on building lots of Trebuchets. Enough ratn, now I shall get going on the game.
Turn one. I rush a Library in Camalodunum. Hopefully we will get some cities to flip to us and thus we can get back some resources. I kill an English Musket.
IBT. Some Americans are coming for us.
Turn two. We build some units and I am now starting to build trebuchets. I make this deal.
IBT. Japan are losing quite badly to the Babs. The Americans land near our shores with a knight, spear and warrior. I'm scared.
Turn three. I make this deal.
I kill the American forces with hte loss of a knight.
IBT. I make peace with England and I get a worker. We can build knights since our deal with Japan is over.
Turn four. I star building some knights again. Babys now have nationalism sinc they can build Riflemen.
IBT. London Build Smiths.
Turn five. I put two settlers together on Camulodunum so that the cathedral gest built quicker and soon we are able to rush it.
IBT. Babylon builds Shakespeares Theatre. Carthage build Newton Theatre.
Turn Six. I make a deal I think. I rush a knight in one city.
The rest will come tommorrow.
To keep this going on, I will post the save so that things can go on. So that means that my next go will be 14 turns.
The Save
Preturn. I make a deal with Hannibal so that we are not slaughtered of the face of the planet. I know it is a lot, but they have a big SoD that would have causing us to be shitting ourselves in our pants.
We do not have any Iron for our selves which is a bad thing. I do think that we cannot win this one, but now w must hink in a different way. I now thinking we need to go for bombardment as our main choice since this will be our best option, so I am going to get started on building lots of Trebuchets. Enough ratn, now I shall get going on the game.
Turn one. I rush a Library in Camalodunum. Hopefully we will get some cities to flip to us and thus we can get back some resources. I kill an English Musket.
IBT. Some Americans are coming for us.
Turn two. We build some units and I am now starting to build trebuchets. I make this deal.
IBT. Japan are losing quite badly to the Babs. The Americans land near our shores with a knight, spear and warrior. I'm scared.
Turn three. I make this deal.
I kill the American forces with hte loss of a knight.
IBT. I make peace with England and I get a worker. We can build knights since our deal with Japan is over.
Turn four. I star building some knights again. Babys now have nationalism sinc they can build Riflemen.
IBT. London Build Smiths.
Turn five. I put two settlers together on Camulodunum so that the cathedral gest built quicker and soon we are able to rush it.
IBT. Babylon builds Shakespeares Theatre. Carthage build Newton Theatre.
Turn Six. I make a deal I think. I rush a knight in one city.
To keep this going on, I will post the save so that things can go on. So that means that my next go will be 14 turns.
The Save
Crakie
Soupnazi
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2004
- Messages
- 527
I finished my test game, hitting the 80K culture limit (small map) in 1325 AD, not bad I suppose for my first attempt. I think I could have shaved off a good 30 turns of the conquest part, and perhaps some more in the culture building part, so 1100 AD may have been possible, but I just cannot be bothered with that kind of MM when playing solo. The culture part is EXTREMELY boring, as Offa said, and that's even with workers automated after irrigation (shift-A, there should be a 'irrigate+railroad only' command) and not assigning worked tiles myself (just 'emphasize food' switched on).
With stronger opponents, I also would not have lost so much time researching myself to communism. I had to self-research just about everything in the MA, except mono, feud and eng/
Communism is awesome though, especially when combined with Civil Engineers. After switching to commie I rushed whatever I could, checking cities every couple of turns, while researching to RP (research switched off after that). With the engineers, I did some more MM, but in the final stages this got to be a real pain as my economy required taxmen as well so sustain the maintenance costs and I just let it go, pressing the spacebar as much as I could
Below I attached a pictured of my Empire and the in game culture graph, and a graph of the Total culture and Culture per turn. If you look carefully, you can see when I switched to communism
With stronger opponents, I also would not have lost so much time researching myself to communism. I had to self-research just about everything in the MA, except mono, feud and eng/
Communism is awesome though, especially when combined with Civil Engineers. After switching to commie I rushed whatever I could, checking cities every couple of turns, while researching to RP (research switched off after that). With the engineers, I did some more MM, but in the final stages this got to be a real pain as my economy required taxmen as well so sustain the maintenance costs and I just let it go, pressing the spacebar as much as I could
Below I attached a pictured of my Empire and the in game culture graph, and a graph of the Total culture and Culture per turn. If you look carefully, you can see when I switched to communism
Crakie
Soupnazi
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2004
- Messages
- 527
And with the test game under my belt, I am sorry to say I will retire from our current game. I am taking the civing down a notch because of pressing RL activities, but I also basically lost interest in this particular one. It's going very slow, there's little discussion and there's a loooooong way to go.
I'll be back for the next SGOTM for sure, but I'd really like to learn some more from top players... some things just take forever to figure out yourself. See you guys around!
I'll be back for the next SGOTM for sure, but I'd really like to learn some more from top players... some things just take forever to figure out yourself. See you guys around!
Marc Aurel
Philosopher Emperor
Sorry guys, I was unexpected offline for a couple of days. Unfortunately RL really got me this time, so that I won’t have time to play the next couple of month. Sorry, I regret this and wish you all the best. I had a great time with you. - Keep going – and good luck!
classical_hero
In whom I trust
Shall we call this one a loss?
