UI is preventing strategic choices - dozens of turns of negative influence and no explanation of it, nor for war weariness, etc. Firaxis please help!

korn469

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Joined
Aug 27, 2001
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Currently I am in the third age 100+ turns into the game, playing as Napoleon, with the biggest map size, and epic speed, playing on a Mac. I've played 20+ hours so far. Here is what I have experienced, and what I think could help. Is anyone else having similar experiences?

I knew I would play aggressively, otherwise I wouldn't have chosen Napoleon as my leader. It's my first game, so I'm sure that my strategies are completely suboptimal. However, I have played all the previous Microprose/Firaxis civ games so I was just trying to figure Civ 7 out, and I would consider myself a decent enough Civ player.

However, after my newest war getting off to a horrible start, I am completely unable to figure out why things are going so wrong. I performed a D-Day like invasion with naval support, tons of tier II units, fighting against tier II units, and yet when you start with -16 war weariness that goes to -17, a single tier II cavalry unit was able to cut my invasion down to size.

In this game I've constantly found it challenging to make informed decisions due to a lack of clear information. For example, I experienced negative influence for over a dozen turns, but the only relevant information was on the city overview screen, which suggested I should have a positive influence. I currently have -70 influence a turn. My city yields indicate I should have a positive amount. At least one of my social policies is set to increase influence. Yet there is a mysterious "other yields" column that has -96 influence per turn. I went from having 500 saved influence, to several, maybe dozens of turns with zero influence. Thankfully, the game sets a floor of floor of 0 for influence, otherwise, I would have had negative several hundred influence. So basically I am completely unable to perform diplomacy, and have been that way for dozens of turns, without any information why.

I have my suspicions. My city limit is currently 19, and I have been over the limit since the first age after my first war. I had a maximum of 32 cities, but I think I am at 28 cities now. So I've had bad happiness, though my total happiness says it's positive. That could be the reason. I have razed many cities during this third age, so it could possibly be that.

My latest war ended several turns ago with the complete conquest of Pachatuli after spending nearly the entire age battling him. I completely forgot what civilization(s) he was. I have one final city of his that hasn't finished being razed.

Additionally, the mechanics behind war-weariness and the associated bonuses for both player and enemy are not clearly explained, making strategic planning difficult. Providing more detailed and accessible information would greatly enhance gameplay and decision-making.


I have went like six or seven turns at peace. I attacked Charlemagne who I've had -90 relations with for dozens of turns in a standard war, and in my first turn I had -16 war weariness, which went to -17. Tier II howitzers and field guns were of little use even with level 8 and 9 generals against a tier II tank, which easily took out a marine (I'm the Americans), and badly damaged my own tier II tank.


Since the UI doesn't tell me why I have -17 war weariness, though suggests I should add war support, but I can't since I have 0 influence and have been like that for dozens of turns, it's extremely frustrating. The UI is withholding vital information that is preventing my strategic choices. Despite amassing a large invasion force, much larger than the defenders, getting -17 to an attack in Civ makes it nearly impossible to win. Not knowing why my war weariness is -17 makes it difficult to make a strategy. One of the possible options is to offset it with influence, but having 0 influence makes that impossible. Having no real clue via the UI on why I have a mysterious -96 influence charge per turn, makes it hard to form a strategy to prevent that.

Firaxis, please help.

Please at the minimum do the following:

*Give a detailed break down and/or accounting of the other yields. It's not clear what they are, or how I'm getting them.
*Give a detailed account of why war weariness is low and/or high
*UI related - but not mentioned, let me see all the active trade routes to and from my Civ, and preferably to and from my allies as well
*We need better methods of sorting. At a minimum we should be able to not just remove towns from view, but to only view towns, as well as being able to sort all the towns and/or cities by their name, and population size, and yields.
*We need a military screen like in previous civs to see and sort all our units
*Make it easies to see all the various information in the game
*Have a message archive.

There's not enough information to make rational choices or to implement strategies in my opinion. If you have played Civ 7, what do you think?
 
The war weariness comes from razing settlements. Every razed settlement gives you -1 war support in current and future wars in that era. It’s written on the button you clicked when you decided to raze or keep that settlement.

The influence penalty is some form of warmongering penalty for which we don’t know the formula yet (afaik).
It would be helpful if you could provide some info so maybe we can deduce the formula: current age, number of conquered settlements, number of razed settlements, stuff like that.

Edit: to address the OP, the war weariness thing is explained in the game, maybe you missed it or didn’t pay attention. The influence thing is not explained anywhere that I know of and I agree it should be explained somewhere. Right know you just see negative influence and supposed it’s because you went too far with the warmongering.
 
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It is also possible to lose influence per turn after some diplo interaction, I believe after succeeding in espionage
 
The war weariness comes from razing settlements. Every razed settlement gives you -1 war support in current and future wars in that era. It’s written on the button you clicked when you decided to raze or keep that settlement.

The influence penalty is some form of warmongering penalty for which we don’t know the formula yet (afaik).
It would be helpful if you could provide some info so maybe we can deduce the formula: current age, number of conquered settlements, number of razed settlements, stuff like that.

Edit: to address the OP, the war weariness thing is explained in the game, maybe you missed it or didn’t pay attention. The influence thing is not explained anywhere that I know of and I agree it should be explained somewhere. Right know you just see negative influence and supposed it’s because you went too far with the warmongering.
I misunderstood, I thought it was -1 war weariness if you razed a city, not -1 war weariness per city. That explains the -17 war weariness. However, it should still be in the UI.

Something like: War Weariness -17 then below it - cities razed 17 - war weariness -17 along with anything else that causes war weariness.

I’m headed to work, but if screen shots or saved games, assuming I can share saved games from a Mac, will help I am happy to send that. Just let me know what you need.
 
It is also possible to lose influence per turn after some diplo interaction, I believe after succeeding in espionage
As far as I can tell I only have only current diplo interaction and that is Caesar boosting culture. I stole tech three or four times this age, and I think I was caught once.

My only other diplomatic interactions have been open borders and befriending two city states.
 
I don't agree that you can't make rational strategic choices, it becomes easier once you've experienced a few of these things and know what to expect.

But I do thoroughly agree with the sentiment that the UI should be giving us this information, and if it did it would certainly be easier to make sensible choices. Not knowing exactly what is causing negative influence is just such an obvious flaw in the UI, unfortunately one of many.

I'm thoroughly enjoying myself regardless but it's all very irritating.
 
Hey this is driving me crazy too, it’s definitely implemented but formula is hidden. Even official game note say it:

“There are also things that can cause a reduction in Influence. Doing something negative on the world stage, such as conquering or razing Settlements, can negatively impact how much Influence you earn per turn, adding another dimension of strategy.”

We can try to estimate -

In antiquity you get +10 free influence

I am in antiquity right now, razed one settlement (also conquered 2) and the other yield free influence has dropped to +4. I’m pretty sure it dropped after the raze not occupation. (But not 100% sure)

So if it’s like -6 per razed settlement (permanent or for x turns) that’s a huge nasty penalty. I'm keeping watch.

More data points please!

@korn469 @Calcifer
 
I had -24 in exploration with 8 conquered, 0 razed settlements. Base for exploration is +20 so the penalty was -44. Hard to find a direct proportion, I'll have to keep an eye on it.

“There are also things that can cause a reduction in Influence. Doing something negative on the world stage, such as conquering or razing Settlements, can negatively impact how much Influence you earn per turn, adding another dimension of strategy.”
Good catch on the dev article!
 
I had -24 in exploration with 8 conquered, 0 razed settlements. Base for exploration is +20 so the penalty was -44. Hard to find a direct proportion, I'll have to keep an eye on it.


Good catch on the dev article!
might not be a direct proportion.... it may be
first N settlements Conquered but not razed=no effect
next N Settlements conquered but not razed=-X each
next N settlements conquered but not razed=-2X each
etc.

and then -Y for each settlement razed
 
Ok here are some stats from my game

It looks like every razed city add 1 to war weariness, and cities being razed may add 0.5. It also looks like every razed city is -5 to relations, and cities being razed may be -2.5.
Not sure about influence yet from these stats.

Modern Age | Epic | Sovereign | Standard Rules | Continents Pls
Map Random Seed 976474
Build 1.01 (1092363) Metal
Napoleon, Revolutionary
America
Elective Republic
I can confirm I do not have any Diplomatic points put into leader attributes.

Turn 130 October 1874:
Cities: 27/19
Qing - eliminated
Cities conquered and razed in this age: 17 | 15 razed | 1 being razed | 1 occupied
Happiness: Total (+93) Settlement (-1464) Other (+1557)
Influence: Total (-79) Settlement (+17) Other (-96)
Diplomatic actions: Ongoing Denounce Military Presence (Prussia), Open Borders (Russia)
Ideology: None

Turn 124 April 1871:
Cities: 30/19
Qing - eliminated
Cities conquered and razed in this age: 17 | 12 razed | 4 being razed | 1 occupied
Happiness: Total (+96) Settlement (-1705.5) Other (+1801.5)
Influence: Total (-78) Settlement (+18) Other (-96)
Diplomatic actions: Ongoing Cultural Exchange (Prussia)
Ideology: Communism

Turn 119 1868:
Cities: 29/19
Cities conquered and razed in this age: 16 | 12 razed | 3 being razed | 1 occupied
Qing War with Pachacuti -14 war weariness (Napoleon 3 / Pachacuti 17 /+14)
Relationship: -90 / -70 Razed a Settlement
Happiness: Total (+96) Settlement (-665) Other (+761)
Influence: Total (-34.5) Settlement (+70) Other (-104.5)
Diplomatic actions: Ongoing Cultural Exchange (Prussia)
Ideology: Communism

Turn 104 1853:
Cities: 30/19
Cities conquered and razed in this age: 11 | 6 razed | 4 being razed | 1 occupied
Qing War with Pachacuti -8 war weariness (Napoleon 3 / Pachacuti 11 /+8)
Relationship: -90 / -40 Razed a Settlement
Happiness: Total (+96) Settlement (-687.5) Other (+783.5)
Influence: Total (-10) Settlement (+81.5) Other (-91.5)
Diplomatic actions: Ongoing Steal Tech (Japan), Open Borders (Mexico), Cultural Exchange (Prussia), Denounce (Japan)
Ideology: Communism

Turn 92 1841:
Cities: 28/19
Cities conquered and razed in this age: 8 | 5 razed | 2 being razed | 1 occupied
Qing War with Pachacuti -7 war weariness (Napoleon 3 / Pachacuti 10 /+7)
Relationship: -90 / -35 Razed a Settlement
Happiness: Total (+102) Settlement (-597) Other (+699)
Influence: Total (+35.5) Settlement (+82.5) Other (-47)
Diplomatic actions: Recently ended Steal Tech (Qing) [this must have been at least a second time doing this] | Ongoing Cultural Exchange (Prussia)
Ideology: Communism

Turn 57 1806:
Cities: 27/19
Cities conquered and razed in this age: 5 | 3 razed | 1 being razed | 1 occupied
Qing War with Pachacuti -2 war weariness (Napoleon 3 / Pachacuti 5 /+2)
Relationship: -85 / -20 Razed a Settlement
Happiness: Total (+102) Settlement (-512) Other (+614)
Influence: Total (+67.5) Settlement (+92.5) Other (-25.5)
Diplomatic actions: Recently ended Steal Tech (Qing) | Ongoing Cultural Exchange (Prussia)
Ideology: None

Turn 36 1785:
Cities: 27/18
Cities conquered and razed in this age: 4 | 2 razed | 1 being razed | 1 occupied
At peace but 11 turns until able to declare war after making peace with Qing
Relationship: -90 / -15 Razed a Settlement
Happiness: Total (+87) Settlement (-468) Other (+555)
Influence: Total (+79.5) Settlement (+74.5) Other (+5)
Diplomatic actions: Recently Ended Declare War (Qing), Open Borders (Mexico) | Ongoing Military Aid (Mexico), Open Borders (Mexico), Open Borders (Japan), Open Borders (Russia), Befriend Independent (Swiss)
Ideology: None

Turn 8 1757:
Cities: 25/17
Cities conquered and razed in this age: 0 | 0 razed | 0 being razed | 0 occupied
At peace
Relationship with Pachacuti: -25 / 0 for razed a settlement
Happiness: Total (+105) Settlement (-467) Other (+572)
Influence: Total (+51.5) Settlement (+21.5) Other (+30)
Diplomatic actions: Ongoing Denounce Military Presence (Prussia), Open Borders (Russia)
Ideology: None

Cities I razed in my war with the Qing:
Apalachee - razed by turn 36
Anshan - razed by turn 36
Ulaangom - being razed in turn 36 | razed by turn 57
Qaraqorum - being razed in turn 57 | razed by turn 92
Aurag - razed by turn 92
Creek - being razed in turn 92 | razed by turn 104
Choctaw - being razed in turn 92 | being razed in turn 104 | razed by turn 119
Beijing - (may have been being razed, but recaptured by turn 92) | being razed in turn 104 | razed by turn 119
Houma - being razed in turn 104 | razed by turn 119
Altai - razed by turn 119
Guangzhou - razed by turn 119
Lanzhou - razed by turn 119
Cahokia - being razed in turn 104 | being razed in turn 119 | being razed in turn 124 | razed by turn 130
Khuduu Aral - being razed in turn 119 | being razed in turn 124 | razed by turn 130
Indrapura - being razed in turn 119 | being razed in turn 124 | razed by turn 130
Khuree - being razed in turn 124 | being razed in turn 130

Changsha - Not sure it seemed to disappear, maybe a city state razed it.
Burgi Ereg - Occupied by turn 36
Suzhou - captured by Caesar

@Calcifer @Morgawr


EDIT: I slept all my units and ran it to turn 147, and the other value for Influence stayed at -96, so it doesn't seem to revert to the mean over time.

I also learned you can never have a negative gold balance, and you cannot disband more than 1 unit per turn due to lack of gold.
 
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That may be true. However, coming back to the UI, it seems like in the modern age you get +30 for influence as a baseline in the other category. Razing a city may be -10 influence per turn, and a city that is being razed is -5, based on turn 8 and turn 36, and that nearly works for turn 119 as well.

That would mean that by turn 130 I have +30 per turn for being in the modern era, either -155 or -160 per turn for the cities I’ve razed, and +34 per turn based on some other factor. Since it’s not stated what this is, it makes it hard to focus on it, and get more.

So again it goes back to the UI not presenting enough info to make a strategic choice.
 
I think you mentioned earlier there's also espionage going on? That also gives an infulence penalty, from ongoing mission and being caught.

@Calcifer

Here are my diplomatic statuses for each of those turns, as well as my ideology, and I checked my leader attributes. I can confirm I do not have any Diplomatic points put into leader attributes.

Turn 8 - Ongoing Denounce Military Presence (Prussia), Open Borders (Russia) / None
Turn 36 - Recently Ended Declare War (Qing), Open Borders (Mexico) | Ongoing Military Aid (Mexico), Open Borders (Mexico), Open Borders (Japan), Open Borders (Russia), Befriend Independent (Swiss) / None
Turn 57 - Recently ended Steal Tech (Qing) | Ongoing Cultural Exchange (Prussia) / None
Turn 92 - Recently ended Steal Tech (Qing) [this must have been at least a second time doing this] | Ongoing Cultural Exchange (Prussia) / Communism
Turn 104 - Ongoing Steal Tech (Japan), Open Borders (Mexico), Cultural Exchange (Prussia), Denounce (Japan) / Communism
Turn 119 - Ongoing Cultural Exchange (Prussia) / Communism
Turn 124 - Recently ended Declare War (Qing) | Ongoing Cultural Exchange (Prussia) / Communism
Turn 130 - Ongoing Cultural Exchange (Prussia) / Communism
 
Were you playing Mughal by any chance? I'm playing a Mughal game right now and they also have their -25% reduction on influence listed under "other yields". I think that's the misterious drop of inluence penalty between 119 and 124.
I'm currently going on a conquer streak in my game, will get back with some more data at the end.
 
Ok here's some data from my last game (Ashoka, Maurya-Chola-Mughal):
  • Settlements exchanged in peace deals don't count for war penalties
  • I conquered one capital in exploration age and influence dropped by 4
  • I conquered 11 settlements in modern age and influece dropped by exactly 4.5 after every conquer
  • Yields update instantly when you conquer the settlement, occupation don't seem to have any impact
My hypotesis:
  • You get a fixed influence penalty for every conquered settlement: 2 in antiquity, 4 in exploration, 6 in modern
  • Mughal -25% to all yields is applied to the influence penalty reducing it to 4.5 per settlement.
Here's a table with my influence yields in modern age:

1740229982396.png


Here's a table with @korn469's America game:

1740229806120.png


If we go with -6 per conquered settlement that leaves with some unaccounted negative yield that you can see in the "difference" column. Some of it could be related to espionage. For example, being caught spying in exploration gives -8 influence per turn for 10 turns (standard speed). In modern I supppose it's -12 per turn.
 
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