Underwater Cities Development

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I know this is a bit late but... Why not just put a mask over the model so the ocean graphics stay on top of the model no matter how far the model rises above the water level?

uh.. because we don't know how to do that!

 

[Galacticat42]

uh.. because we don't know how to do that!

Okay... Then someone could always just make textures for the models with 25% transparency - works the same way.

 

[johny smith]

I was searching around to see if anyone was successful on making the city base plot go under the water plane, and saw this thread. I saw the continental shelf versus coast debate, and I immediately thought why not bring back the old Civ III idea of seas.

If you introduce underwater maps, and are looking for a little more to terrain you probably will need to address water terrain in general. Seas was a pet peeve to me about Civ IV. I missed the old Great Lighthouse giving coastal boats the ability to navigate seas. I would think seas could be a better, but not accurate proxy for continental shelves.

Also I had said something a while back that if the nomadic camp was functioning, the graphics could be modified of course to have some sort of moving city. So there is no reasons it could not be modified to move underwater or in the air (if an atmosphere map was added). Of course it could function for gas giants or for Venus mining. If you are hung on fixing the camp...why not quite looking at the camp as nomadic, and instead spruce it up with rocket boosters making it fly.

This is probably be beating a dead horse, but rivers are missing from all of this, and could there be terraforming below the surface to affect the surface? For example, laying a tunnel on the sea floor, or building a bridge over a deep ocean? Artificial rivers or cuts in the land could even be possible. Would there be different underwater microclimates in the future used to harvest organic products instead of just mining?

The moon for example will probably need to be colonized as well underground I assume for protection, and in general a lot of maps could use moving cities. Anyway ignore my posts if you have already heard this.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@johny smith

Well there have been 3 ideas on this.

1. You have the underwater city on the surface. It looks ugly and the AI will not know what to do.

2. You have the underwater city on the surface but have it as hidden layer. Thus you turn off different graphics on the surface to simulate different layers. However the AI still won't know how to do stuff in the ocean. But it would work well for underground things.

3. You have a multi-map that mirrors the surface map. Thus the seabed is actually land and as such the AI knows how to settle. However multi-maps are not even done and the problem of moving units from one map to the other and battles between underground/underwater and surface units.

 

[johny smith]

@Hydro

I understand the problems. I was modding the genetic era for the WoC before. Oh btw the Final Frontier lanes look so much better for tunnels. I understand the general lack of AI. But I am not even addressing that.

But since it is all up in the air anyway....Why not different types of water? That seems like a simple step to better match terrain below the water to the surface of the water.

Battles back and forth I know will be a mess of work. But what about just the terrain changes from one or another? Could you fill in land under the water expanding the continental shelf thus expanding the coast (or sea as I was thinking) on the surface?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm strongly in the camp that would prefer having the underwater/underground multi-map. I'm thinking the development to enable movement between the two would be fun and a great strategic layer!

 

[primem0ver]

I have a few things to say (and repeat) in regard to the recent comments.

1. I don't know why people keep bringing up the AI. As I have explained previously, the AI issues being discussed have been taken care of. We may need to adapt it to certain conventions used in C2C but the AI for the Genetic Era Mod worked solidly in regard to not allowing attacks that did not make sense. In the Genetic Era mod, ships/air units could not attack units in underwater cities or in sea tunnels and units in tunnels/cities could not attack ships in the sea. The only exception to this was to pillage the tunnel where a unit existed. If that happened, any land unit on the plundered plot (using the tunnel) would die (in the area pillaged).
2. The only issues with the AI was it choosing to place underwater cities at all. And that issue occurred only after making additional requirements for placing them. Without the methane restriction we eventually placed the AI did just fine creating under-water cities. I also don't ever remember having the AI attack one of my underwater cities. But I am not sure if that was an issue with the AI or if it was just that the AI found other cities more worthy of attacking. So the only improvements that would need to be made to the AI is making sure that the AI placed cities to its advantage and making sure that the AI knew how and when to attack sea cities. The "How" is the tricky part since ships cannot officially occupy the city beneath once the attack won by a foreign entity. We may need to come up with a new kind of unit (a field unit that can occupy a city, yet still move through water).
3. There are many advantages to having the underwater maps as a multi-map. However there are many disadvantages as well and personally I think they may outweigh the advantages.
4. The main one (disadvantage) being that multi-maps will prevent travel from one continent to another without moving through an ocean map. I think this is a terrible inconvenience. For example, moving land units from Spain under the Straight of Gibraltar to Morocco should not require switching to the underwater map. Even if the move takes multiple turns to get from one continent to another using a tunnel or someone wants to just move to a specific point under the ocean for a turn, I think requiring the switch in order to move to a space underwater is too big a price to pay, even with the graphics issues.
5. Can anyone think of a compromise to the last issue? Keep in mind that the only reason for building the under-water layer would be for graphical purposes since the AI is already capable of handling the other issues.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The main one (disadvantage) being that multi-maps will prevent travel from one continent to another without moving through an ocean map. I think this is a terrible inconvenience. For example, moving land units from Spain under the Straight of Gibraltar to Morocco should not require switching to the underwater map. Even if the move takes multiple turns to get from one continent to another using a tunnel or someone wants to just move to a specific point under the ocean for a turn, I think requiring the switch in order to move to a space underwater is too big a price to pay, even with the graphics issues.

Having to take more turns to go from land to underwater to land again seems like a small price compared to the advantage of opening up the underground. Sure you could have so called "underwater" cities using the map we have. But if you had an underwater/underground map you would open up 3 new types of cities ...

1. Underground cities
2. Underwater cities
3. Floating cities (as in on the water surface).

And there could be even a 4th type if you made an orbital layer on the map for Orbital Cities.

 

[MagnusIlluminus]

I'm amazed that in all this discussion that nobody has brought up the Planetfall Mod. It's a Civ4 adaptation of Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, with some elements from Alien Crossfire, including aquatic cities and an entirely aquatic faction. Well, they can build land bases, but their focus is aquatic.

Anyway, you guys might be able to get some inspiration from how they did things, and can probably just use what they have by giving proper acknowledgement. You can find it here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=278

 

[ls612]

I have a few things to say (and repeat) in regard to the recent comments.

1. I don't know why people keep bringing up the AI. As I have explained previously, the AI issues being discussed have been taken care of. We may need to adapt it to certain conventions used in C2C but the AI for the Genetic Era Mod worked solidly in regard to not allowing attacks that did not make sense. In the Genetic Era mod, ships/air units could not attack units in underwater cities or in sea tunnels and units in tunnels/cities could not attack ships in the sea. The only exception to this was to pillage the tunnel where a unit existed. If that happened, any land unit on the plundered plot (using the tunnel) would die (in the area pillaged).
2. The only issues with the AI was it choosing to place underwater cities at all. And that issue occurred only after making additional requirements for placing them. Without the methane restriction we eventually placed the AI did just fine creating under-water cities. I also don't ever remember having the AI attack one of my underwater cities. But I am not sure if that was an issue with the AI or if it was just that the AI found other cities more worthy of attacking. So the only improvements that would need to be made to the AI is making sure that the AI placed cities to its advantage and making sure that the AI knew how and when to attack sea cities. The "How" is the tricky part since ships cannot officially occupy the city beneath once the attack won by a foreign entity. We may need to come up with a new kind of unit (a field unit that can occupy a city, yet still move through water).
3. There are many advantages to having the underwater maps as a multi-map. However there are many disadvantages as well and personally I think they may outweigh the advantages.
4. The main one (disadvantage) being that multi-maps will prevent travel from one continent to another without moving through an ocean map. I think this is a terrible inconvenience. For example, moving land units from Spain under the Straight of Gibraltar to Morocco should not require switching to the underwater map. Even if the move takes multiple turns to get from one continent to another using a tunnel or someone wants to just move to a specific point under the ocean for a turn, I think requiring the switch in order to move to a space underwater is too big a price to pay, even with the graphics issues.
5. Can anyone think of a compromise to the last issue? Keep in mind that the only reason for building the under-water layer would be for graphical purposes since the AI is already capable of handling the other issues.

1. I agree here, do you have a link for the source of Genetic Era?

3. I agree totally, I do not want to have Underwater cities as a multi-Map if it can be helped.

4. We'd need to fix the DLL implications of connecting Areas (IE, making tunnels across oceans). The tunnels are disabled by default because when you connect two Areas it needs to recalculate all trade routes among other things, and that was causing crashes (as well as taking well over 30 minutes).

 

[rightfuture]

I'm amazed that in all this discussion that nobody has brought up the Planetfall Mod. It's a Civ4 adaptation of Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, with some elements from Alien Crossfire, including aquatic cities and an entirely aquatic faction. Well, they can build land bases, but their focus is aquatic.

Anyway, you guys might be able to get some inspiration from how they did things, and can probably just use what they have by giving proper acknowledgement. You can find it here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=278

I agree, I've also brought up the underwater cities in Planetfall several times before, here in these forums. (I'm not the only one). All worth looking at for inspiration.

Underwater cites àla "Call to Power"?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11252222&highlight=underwater+cities#post11252222

I've been championing the idea of underwater cities for awhile here on C2C.
Please share your love for them.

The Planetfall mod uses them.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=278
The Genetic Era mod (long since dead) developed them differently I believe.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=184182
the other ideas and code here is probably somewhat useful as well.
There is a lot of potential in developing the oceans, from underwater zoos, to sea colonies, to harvesting methane, rare minerals, to growing kelp, algae for food, exploring the depths, like the television series Seaquest DSV.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeaQuest_DSV

Spoiler :

I would suggest some other good sources to pull ideas.
The Millennial Project: Colonizing the Galaxy in Eight Easy Steps
www.amazon.com/Millennial-Project-Colonizing-Galaxy-Eight/dp/0316771635
Great book by the way. I own it.
The material here would be fascinating to use for the Transhuman through Galactic eras.
The Aquarius sea colonies alone are interesting for the Transhuman era.
The OTEC or Ocean -Thermal -Energy - Conversion technology shows great promise in changing energy and food production for the world. Darpa is currently building a major project with the technology today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_thermal_energy_conversion
http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/11/ocean-thermal-energy-conversion-otec.html
Most of the ideas in the Millennial project are based in real science.

Here are some other good sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millennial_Project:_Colonizing_the_Galaxy_in_Eight_Easy_Steps
http://tmp2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=i...l6437l0l6679l21l19l0l0l0l0l190l1597l17.2l19l0

Why we are on that subject. Here are some other great sources to consider:
http://www.thevenusproject.com/
https://www.google.com/search?q=the...QWzn9nmAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CGMQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=728

http://oceania.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zeitgeist_Movement
http://www.amazon.com/Rifts-Underseas-World-Book/dp/091621172X
http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Underwater-Sourcebook-Roleplaying-Supplement/dp/1932374124
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/atlantis/
I only have so much time,
Can anyone help me go through these for good ideas for C2C?

What do YOU want to see in the future eras?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11580811&highlight=underwater+cities#post11580811

Doesn't the Planetfall mod use underwater cities just fine with AI? I've played it enough to think it works fine.

New terrain features
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12132672&highlight=underwater+cities#post12132672

Are you going to by using any parts/ideas ported over from the Genetic Mod that PrimOver made? (not to say that anything is potentially useful) I know you used some from Dune Wars, Planetfall, and Mars Now! Now that PrimOver is involved, he might have some ideas. I know that you at least looked at his underwater cities.
Now that you are working on the future eras would it be a good idea to post a list of those features from the other future based mods to be considered? Then people could figure out the alternatives if better ones already exist.

C2C-Idea Inspiration and Organization
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11566352&highlight=underwater+cities#post11566352

Thread created on behalf of Strategyonly, Rightfuture is Thread Lead
Ongoing Priority List and Idea Library -
Priority List of Ideas to be worked on in the near future.
1. Strategic Rivers mod rework and integration
2. Multi-Maps and Viewports - to extend planetary and galactic eras ala Final Frontier. (integration of similar ideas and mods) - Koshling
3. Graded Invisibility / Vision Improvements - primem0ver / thunderbrd, etc.
4. Underwater Cities - primem0ver
5. Transhuman Era expansion - Hyrdomancerx, Ls612, Vokarya, Thunderbrd, MrAzure, CivFurhrer, and community.
..and more

Underwater cites àla "Call to Power"?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11278343&highlight=underwater+cities#post11278343

To find a good underwater city picture for the tile graphic someone could do a cut and past from a underwater city picture that someone finds on google images. I'm sure it could be easily resized.

https://www.google.com/search?q=und...wWdmLH_Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CDsQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=728
and

Some more sea city inspiration
http://thevenusproject.com/technology/cities-in-the-sea
https://www.google.com/search?q=sea...QLft9TCDw&sqi=2&ved=0CDEQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=728
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...seasteading-sea-buildings-pictures/index.html
http://weburbanist.com/2010/06/23/futuretecture-from-sea-cities-to-space-colonies/
http://www.freedomship.com/
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-03-09/...eading_1_floating-cities-platforms?_s=PM:TECH
mobile sea cities - great idea

I like the idea of virtual communities becoming beds of idea experimentation (non-geographic) as well.

If nothing else it is cool to look at. Hope some ideas inspire people for C2C.
What do you all think?

Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11564507&highlight=underwater+cities#post11564507

-This argument is for expanding the elements of Exploration in C2C (as a major effort in some new C2C version). Please bear with me as I want to highlight era progression and different ideas.

I would love to see more relics also (and abandoned cities that become lost -to be found later). Their discovery / generation could tie into tech advances, surveying, and archeology with discoveries like ground penetrating radar, satellites. It would be neat to see more destroyed civilizations/ ruined cities in the early game (remnants of ones that didn't make it), They could be forgotten during classical history, slowly uncovered in the modern era, and massively revealed with advances in technology today. It could easily give some great discovery flavor to C2C during different eras..

Exploration is a major feature of civilization, and it should be different for the different eras. Exotic animals found, natives cultures, lost cities, relics, lost knowledge. These didn't just happen in the early ages. The age of discovery didn't just happen when we first explored the world. I'm going to break down the attitude and motive of exploration here as I basically see it.

Spoiler :

The Prehistoric eras: the primary motive for exploration was survival (live where food/shelter exists), migration (follow the food herds), Gathering (live where food grows), and the dawn of agriculture. Superstition rained, and the struggle was primal and uncertain. Animals and other tribes competing for food, were just as much as a threat. There is much evidence that cities, civilizations and agriculture (just look at recently adjusted timing discoveries) existed before classical times. Many were abandoned for all sorts of reasons (climate change -drought - see Mayans, warfare, flooding events like the Black Sea, the underwater Egyptian cities, and tsunamis from volcanoes and other events, etc.) Superstiton was the primary method of control, shamans and legenday god kings, used survival fear to keep people motivated. Discovery was unintentional and a byproduct of reaction, moving towards or away from significant events / motivating factors. Canoes sailed the oceans, plagues and drought moved people, people walked the land, oral tradition moved culture. Everything was new.

The Classic eras: This was the age were cultures came alive and grounded in fixed cities, as the animals, and elements were tamed, agriculture and animal husbandry created stable food sources and warfare became more political. Discovery was in conquest, agriculture became an attractive target for the game of control .Religions helped dispell superstitions for the purpose of keeping people in line (unified civilizations). Exploration came in the form of trade, new territory to conquer, coastal sea networks, whole civilizations were absorbed and razed (Troy anyone). Now we have neighbors; Let's compete with them attitude. Written preservation allowed technologies to build on each other faster. Stone, Bronze, Iron, the elements defined progression. Discovery was defined by looking for neighbors. Archeology was ignored except for usable materials (gold, silver, metal) and food sources. Dinosaur bones lead to myths of giants, minotaurs, gods, and great beasts. Cities were built on top of other cities.

The Age of Discovery(more classic, and medieval); this really started when trade started becoming global, the silk road, the spice trade. The Phoenicians, Chinese, Polynesians supposedly started minor far reaching trade, traveling networks in classic times.
(American Indians, Eskimos, Vikings, etc. duplicated the same type of exploring traveling cultures at different times.) This didn't necessarily follow the era progression.
It really took off when explorers started traveling the globe, looking for riches and new lands (Marco Polo or the Vikings highlighted the start) , Columbus and the other great adventurers such as Magellan, followed coastlines and maps to see what was over that next hill. The motive here was wealth, with countries funding exploration. The world started to push back the binds of superstition and wanted to tour the neighborhood. Gold and silver were the focus, relics, and abandoned cities were just signs were gold could be found. The terrain of discovery was one of nearby new cultures (china, africa, the middle east), exploitable resources, spotting of sea serpents/whales. The start of global mobility.

The Age of Colonization(Renaissance , Early Colonial) a full force expansion of the Age of exploration, probably started with the European discovery of the New World and the ending of the fear of crossing oceans. The eras spanning these ages we defined by the race to discover and conquer fueled/motivated by wealth, and religion(missionaries and religious conversion). We are looking past our neighbors to conquer foreign lands to build empires. Finding relics, dinosaur bones (what are they?) and lost cities (like the 7 Cities of Gold), and the Fountain of Youth myth, made this time very exciting.
-My favorite video game from that age is 7 Cities of Gold.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Cities_of_Gold_(video_game)
supply lines to support colonies, fighting/ trading with the natives.
'You have discovered a vast land of land of canyons' (or landforms like trees, rivers, islands, swamps) is a great event item.
Resource discovery, like what is in Civ V and the Natural wonders mod could be a big focus in C2C. Heck both of Sid Meier's Colonization Games, both the standalone, and the CivIV remake highlight the importance of exploration and discovery as full game concepts.

In more modern eras, the dawning ages of machines, industrialization, science, and technology, space, information, and the future, all had significant changes towards our view towards exploration. Motivation is changing and different, survival, conquest, wealth, expansion, competition, cold war, space race. Discovery and exploration is different also. New resources become important, new techs unveil new desires, and uncover hidden treasures. Each can be exciting in different ways.

Tomb raiding could destroy artifacts, yield gold to scavenging thieves in mid eras. It could get worse over time as artifacts are valued differently. Natural wonders, discovery of new cultures, and now cities underwater and hidden by forests, can make C2C very interesting. Exploration is a very big deal, it can keep era progression fresh, and it has a major impact on history.
Anyone else feel the same?

Integrating Mods - Incorporating / Exploring Ideas from other mods.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10922090&highlight=underwater+cities#post10922090

I still really like the idea of underwater cities from both the Genetics mod, and Planetfall mod.
Wasn't the coding done correctly in the Planetfall Mod??; It could be potentially used.

Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10819516&highlight=underwater+cities#post10819516

As far as ideas go, there seems to be a lot of good mods out there. Are you incorporating ideas from the defunct Genetic Era for Warlords mod like underwater cities?

The old Wolfhanze mod seemed to have a lot of new war units in it. Are you all exploring the ideas from other modpacks and the creation and customization parts of the forum? I would put out a call for new modders to help there.

My favorite mod historically was the Extra mod by Chiyu. It took ideas and units from all the official scenarios. I really like the way the tech tree flowed. The Planetfall mod by Maniac (remade Alpha Centauri) has all sorts of future technologies and underwater resources. The Dune Wars, and Mars, Now! mods seemed to have some ideas and units which also could be incorporated.

As far as new ideas go, I would explore all biome terrain types from atlases, such as different types of forest and marshes. Not all deserts are the same. Rain levels and altitude could make things interesting. There have been some seasonal mod ideas tossed around, like the World History mod idea in the creation forum. I liked the idea of keeping up with the perfectworld random map scripts, and maybe the GEM (giant earth map) premade map for scenarios.

Spoiler :

As far as prehistoric creatures, I offer giant ground sloths. As far as alternative world units, I recommend steam cars, and clockwork automatons. Science fiction, cyberpunk, and steampunk literature, as well as roleplaying games dealing with the future have a lot to offer as far as ideas. Would be neat to have ringworld, dyson sphere progression. Maybe plasma weapons could lead to chemical lasers could lead to particle weapons.

Diseases, like plagues, have shaped history and could be interesting as they spread like religions and corporations, especially with their effect on wars. Global events like crusades and other movements could be inspired by choice of technology/civics and could change the scope of a country's authority, i.e. democracy could affect ability to easily declare war.

Politics and points of view could change the shape of a countries progress. Books like Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel as well as Howard Bloom's The Lucifer Principle have interesting insight into the progression of societies.
Somebody mentioned the Total War mod earlier, are you all incorporating any parts of these or other realism mods. Maybe you could attract other mod builders to contribute.

I did notice that you no longer have any active thread in modpacks since they created the subforum, some of the other projects still have threads, To keep up interest I would recommend that you try to restablish a linked thread to keep up interest. Not everybody knows that C2C has an active project! It seems tucked in amongst all the others in the project forum.

As this is the logical extension to AND/HAND, the ROM mod, the REVDCM mod, and the Revolutions / Dale's Combat mod mods / and BUG mods, have you made any attempts to reach out to their older members through their threads? I would make some attempt to contact Afforess, Zappara, Glider, Dale, and Jdog5000 , they may not be active but may throw you a few new ideas, comments, or problem solving. Even if they were busy they might have ideas worth exploring or a moment to dabble in their past love for civ iv modding. I would also reach out to Vincentz on his mod ideas, and Chiyu with his previously mentioned Extra Mod. I recommend that you make some attempt to reach out again. If you only can team up for a moment it would be glorious!
...

and it is.

and also from others Here in C2C:
Underwater cites àla "Call to Power"?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=453571&highlight=underwater+cities

Revival: Genetic Era Mod
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=348754&highlight=underwater+cities

Review of Civilization 6, published in March 2013
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=390857&highlight=underwater+cities

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=464579&highlight=underwater+cities

We've discussed the idea of adding water cities before, and another issue with them is that the cities render on top of the water, as opposed to under the water. That is most likely fixable, but it is another issue when adding that as a new feature.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11889019&highlight=underwater+cities#post11889019

@Hydromancerx
Cool! Thanks for the contribution! And yes... the GeoRealism mod takes the affect that height has on a biome into consideration (the reason for the highlands tags in the Biome file)...
@EVERYONE!@
...We do have a lot of pet projects and we need to decide which ones are priority. I was originally going to focus on underwater cities and invisibility. But people (including SO) wanted me to focus on this so I did....
[/LIST]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=474613&highlight=underwater+cities

and here in CivFanatics:

Civ 6
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=443645&highlight=underwater+cities

Okay, so I am a HUGE fan of civ 5 and even civ 4 loved them both. Also I am a very big fan of the game Spore. Now my first question is will there be a civ 6? and if there is what do you guys think will be changed, and what do you think should be changed, or upgraded. For me the biggest change in the actual gameplay would be, after you have reached the end, like the science path for instance, you build a space ship and that is the end of the game and you have "won".

I think it would be really sweet, if they added another level , which would totally change the game. After you reach the level of research that you can get a space ship, you should be able to slowly explore the universe, like spore, but not exactly. For example to start, we could start putting up satellites, and then the race to the moon, and then even farther then the human race has in real life.

Such as exploring our solar system's most out most reaches, and then out of our solar system, and eventually the entire universe. They should put their own civ twist on it though, like you could colonize certain planets, or take over current ones on other planets. this is just a rough idea so far, but I really think this would be a GREAT idea. What are your thoughts?

TOT had two games with four levels of maps that could be explored and conquered with portals of different types allowing units to move from one map to the next, or units with the ability to do so on their own.

The game was limited to 255 cities though.

Right. The sci-fi one had a weird name . The other multi-level one was a fantasy one where you could populate air, surface, underwater and underworld realms. I think I still have the game. Hmmm....where did I put that? Probably wouldn't run well in 7 anyway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization_II:_Test_of_Time

Offworld Colonization
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=474347&highlight=underwater+cities

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=479339&highlight=underwater+cities

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=361834&highlight=underwater+cities

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=472364&highlight=underwater+cities
GEM: Sea Armies
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=473786&highlight=underwater+cities
The "Does This Exist?" Thread
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=470929&highlight=underwater+cities
Atlantis Civilization
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=456659&highlight=underwater+cities

Procylon's Call to Power Project
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=393706&highlight=underwater+cities

Moderator Action: Colonization: 2071
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=349050&highlight=underwater+cities

Community Call to Power Project
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=432802&highlight=underwater+cities
etc.

I do think that Underwater Cities (done right) should be a priority very soon.
I think it deserves at least some ongoing pre-multimap/underwater/ground discussion and focus to open up the ideas here.
Both Planetfall(Maniac) and the Genetic Mod (PrimOver) explore this area well, though Planetfall does underwater cities better. That alone makes importing the Planetfall code directly as an addition to C2C as a potentially great idea since it is so well developed and part of the extended CIV vision (completely based on Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri(SMAC)!
At the very least the Planetfall mod is a help to AI, underwater cities, and a bridge to Multi-maps, and the Galactic/Trans-human Eras, as well as the civilizations, units, terrain, and apocalyptic flowing counter.
I think it's time to fully consider and start the discussion of including all the useful material from both mods, to help finish the Trans-human and lay the groundwork for the Galactic Eras, as well as inspire solutions for movement on the multi-maps.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[rightfuture]

I would also argue that Planetfall is as compelling a core merge as Final Frontier Plus is for the Galactic Era, and a step toward completing multi-maps (creating the underwater/underground map layer, and fully merging Trans-human and Galactic Era ideas from Planetfall. )

The case to merge in Planetfall completely into C2C:
I think there is a compelling case to merge in Planetfull completely(and most of Genetic mod's great ideas, especially since PrimOver is now with us!). Merging and using Planetfall already has Maniac's blessing, and is in truth, it is an already developed (and extremely well made) port of Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri (SMAC) and Alien Crossfire expansion (SMACX) into Civ IV.

1. It is Sid Meier's vision.

2. It is a well done extension of CIV. (and it is as big a deal as Final Frontier Plus mod integration is.)

3. It is an expansion of the future, the Trans-human and Galactic Age

4. It has Maniac's(the creator of the Planetfall Mod) blessing. You might even engage
Maniac's and Planetfall contributors for some good advice and assistance.

5. C2C can have Alpha Centauri, and Planetfall's audience and attention.
C2C can actively continue the development of those projects and be considered and include the next evolution of Alpha Centauri and Planetfall.
PlanetFall is already a popular mod, and C2C can attract a even larger audience by engaging the Planetfall, SMAC, and SMAX communities completely, even if C2C's vision reworks and replaces it, by integrating it completely as a foundation, like RevDCM was included in ROM, and BUG and AND, and other mods' were worked into C2C. (I think it would make a great addition to the included mods list of C2C. Especially for popularity and modding purposes.) Since C2C already is the extension of CIV's vision and Planetfall encompass that already (to a degree), Planetfall should be brought in!

6. C2C can work off of Planetfall's and SMAC's already well built foundation.
Even if it would take a lot of work, we should merge in the fundamental core of Planetfall as component mod of C2C.

7. I want to see this happen (as it make sense)!! I bet I'm not alone.

8. Everyone can relate to the ideas of Alpha Centauri and Planetfall! (just as much as the Final Frontier mod /Star Trek!)
Many of C2C's near future and speculative ideas are already being developed in the reworking of the Transhuman Era , and creation of the Galactic Age in anticipation of the completion of multi-maps.


9. The code from Planetfall can work, and including most of the mod into C2C, even with radical reworking, will at least bring the fans, and bring the vision of Alpha Centauri, and Planetfall completely into Caveman2Cosmos, and the vision of CIV into the future.

Alpha Centauri and Planetfall are a fundamental view of everyone's vision for CIV and C2C, and the core of Planetfall should as fundamentally underly and fit into C2C and bring the spirit of Sid Meier, and Alpha Centauri, as much as the code, heart, and of Final Frontier invokes Star Trek and the promise of a Galactic Era for C2C.
It would take a lot of work, but it defines the Transhuman Era as a pre-built focus, and could help frame the creation of multi-maps as a foundation for this year.

Underwater Cities and the Underwater/Underground map layer for multi-maps is a discussion worth having now, and including Planetfall can tie all these things together:
A. Underwater Cities. (Done mostly right in Planetfall/Alpha Centauri.)
B. Underwater multi-map layer. Gameplay dynamics done right in Planetfall.
C. Transhuman-Early Galactic Era Technologies (Even as they are already worked out and paired down. including them as port as placeholders would help C2C include the feel and spirit of Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri.)
D. The transition to the Galactic Era, the transition of CIV IV into the future(beyond Civ IV > CIV 6!), and the expanding vision and future of C2C. Exploration of the Future!
E. The code for including underwater cities already exists in Planetfall. Not to mention a lot of other useful and well developed code as a integrated core that could be ported and merged in.
F. Sid Meier's vision for CIV.
G. A lot more of the Civ community.

To boldly go where Sid Meier, Star Trek, and Maniac have gone before, and BEYOND!!!

10. Planetfall/SMAC/SMACX belongs in Caveman2Cosmos!!! Like the Final Frontier Mod, it is part of the vision of CIV. I think it screams to be included into C2C. What do you all think!!!!!

Since there is so much current focus on polishing up the Trans-Human Era before multi-maps is complete, I think you should consider merging in the core of Planetfall (and the best parts of the Genetic Mod) as a major step for finishing multi-maps and the future eras in our immediate future.
This makes as much sense as, merging the Stone Age mod with AND, and the extensions of ROM, to create Caveman2Cosmos, and adding the Final Frontier (plus) mod, and creating Multi-Maps to build the Galactic Era(and beyond) to take C2C to the future, the future of CIV, and further!

I played Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri(SMAC) and the Alien Crossfire expansion(SMACX) quite thoroughly, and vote heavily that they should be completely merged into C2C (to fill in unfilled/unplanned content) with the requested help of Maniac and PrimOver.

Out of all the mods in Civfanatics; Planetfall, and Final Frontier Plus deserve a complete merge (Navigable Rivers too!) and complete engagement with their communities (K-MOD also for core C2C gameplay improvements / R2R anyone?) will take them all forward towards and past CIV 6!

I think that once we figure out how to do the underwater layer in multi-maps that Underwater Cities can be Rapture'd and raised from the depths(Bioshock / Stargate Atlantis).

Maybe this year should be framed as the 'Atlantis' project.
We can raise C2C from prehistoric past through the best of history and the history of Civfanatics (like Planetfall and The Final Frontier mods) and the world, and onwards to an ever ambitious future, through multi-maps, the Galactic Era, the Dimensional Era, and transcendence! Raising C2C into the future of a modern Civ 6! Multi-mapped, multi-cored, multi-layered, and multi-dimensional!

Please start to merge the core of the Planetfall mod into C2C! The underwater cities and unit AI will be especially useful, as well as the layering and graphics.
It could be very helpful to C2C, and underwater city development, as well as multi-maps!

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well I personally think that if the city is on the surface map then we should call it a Marine or Floating city. This could be enabled at Marine Architecture tech. While truly underwater cities would be on a multi-map and would be on the sea floor. This would be enabled at Marine Colonization tech. Likewise the Underground city could be enabled at Subterranean Colonization tech. Which would be a new tech that comes after Subterranean Exploration.

Note that the core difference between Underwater and Floating is that a Floating city would be like the Dubai Floating city.

Floating City
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They have part above and below the surface. Making the graphics that primem0ver had in his Genetic Era mod make sense. Basically its turning a bug into a feature.

Underwater cities on the other hand need to be full contained in that they have their own air. Possibly using massive re-breathers or getting oxygen from the water.

Underwater City
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[Thunderbrd]

Well I personally think that if the city is on the surface map then we should call it a Marine or Floating city. This could be enabled at Marine Architecture tech. While truly underwater cities would be on a multi-map and would be on the sea floor. This would be enabled at Marine Colonization tech. Likewise the Underground city could be enabled at Subterranean Colonization tech. Which would be a new tech that comes after Subterranean Exploration.

Completely agree.

Additionally, the point was made that the tunnels would lead us into the underwater map. I'm ok with that (though I'm also excited to hear that the mess I saw when trying to sort out the domain v domain issues re: tunnels had been sorted out in another mod's code!). But we should also have 'Bridges' for a number of gaps across water tiles that can cover the majority of the small jumps from one landmass to another without having to switch maps. We have the graphics... we just need the rest of the programming for them.

And it would give bridges and tunnels a distinct difference in application.

What gets me though, is that tunnels wouldn't work much different in an underwater map than they would if we didn't have an underwater map at all - we'd still need to work out a unique unit interaction set of rules for them.

 

[Hydromancerx]

That's a good idea to make bridges for surface maps and tunnels for underwater/underground maps.

 

[MagnusIlluminus]

I probably shouldn't go here, but...

@rightfuture: Um, wow. Those posts were a bit excessive. Not only do you repeat yourself a lot, but some of your facts are wrong. The biggest one is that despite the fact that Sid Meier's name is on both Alpha Centauri and Alien Crossfire, he had nearly nothing to do with the development of either game. If I recall correctly, Brian Reynolds was the lead developer for those games. So saying that it's Sid's vision for the game is a bit skewed, much less that it's his vision for C2C.

To be clear, I am not asking for a full merge of the two mods. In fact, I think that would be a bad idea. There are several things that Planetfall does that would be harmful for this Mod, including and especially the flowering counter. I do think that there are useful things in it that could help the aquatic / underwater cities (possibly including AI for them), as well as possible futuristic units, but that's about all.

 

[rightfuture]

I probably shouldn't go here, but...

@rightfuture: Um, wow. Those posts were a bit excessive. Not only do you repeat yourself a lot, but some of your facts are wrong. The biggest one is that despite the fact that Sid Meier's name is on both Alpha Centauri and Alien Crossfire, he had nearly nothing to do with the development of either game. If I recall correctly, Brian Reynolds was the lead developer for those games. So saying that it's Sid's vision for the game is a bit skewed, much less that it's his vision for C2C.

To be clear, I am not asking for a full merge of the two mods. In fact, I think that would be a bad idea. There are several things that Planetfall does that would be harmful for this Mod, including and especially the flowering counter. I do think that there are useful things in it that could help the aquatic / underwater cities (possibly including AI for them), as well as possible futuristic units, but that's about all.

True, I was just tying past things I said together, some of them were about Alpha Centauri, and Planetfall in general, some of them were about the Alpha Centauri expansion Alien Crossfire (Smacx). Remember that I was referencing a lot of other content, some of those were about Maniac, who made the Planetfall mod based on Alpha Centauri, and not Brian Reynolds or Sid Meier and their specific involvement and their notable inspirations. Much of the repetition was due to improper editing, or rushed thought process today, as much as quotes from things I had previously said in different contexts.
I do agree that these were wandering thoughts, sorry about being excessive, I was just trying to reference them a little and add to the conversation.

I happen to agree that it shouldn't be a complete merge, flowering counter isn't the only thing that should be left out, but, in my opinion. a lot of the content and code could be a good filler to work with. I'm not tied to it, just floating the ideas.
Please pardon my semi-occasional excessive-ness, some of it comes from some extra exhaustion over the last 3 days(<5 hrs sleep and severe sleep apnea).
In hindsight, I could have said most of that in a few paragraphs, but I'll leave it to stand right now. I also place some reasoning on trying to get thoughts out before I had to be at work.
I will endeavor to be more focused and brief.

 

[johny smith]

I was trying to point out for example if you build a bridge between floating cities the underwater map could effect it. Different underwater terrain could dictate if the ground is stable enough for the bridges on the surface map. The surface water could reflect the differences found on the sea floor. This could have effects for example like if you can make a hydroponic fruit farm on the surface water due to the temperature below the surface. I know the methane was required in genetic era mod, but there could more resources add to the map like farming on the water. I am probably just adding complexity when the multiple map is not even ready yet.

 

[primem0ver]

Having to take more turns to go from land to underwater to land again seems like a small price compared to the advantage of opening up the underground. Sure you could have so called "underwater" cities using the map we have. But if you had an underwater/underground map you would open up 3 new types of cities ...

1. Underground cities
2. Underwater cities
3. Floating cities (as in on the water surface).

And there could be even a 4th type if you made an orbital layer on the map for Orbital Cities.

I don't like your proposal of the two/three other types of cities. I really don't see them being viable options for the future. Here is why:

1. Underground cities may exist in the future. But I can guarantee you that what is below ground will also have an above ground component. Having cities entirely underground is cost ineffective to the extreme and the thought that such a city would ever exist is IMO unreasonable. The only condition in which anything like this would arise would be if people went underground to be protected from harmful radiation. But that could still be reflected in existing cities. People aren't going to be building brand new underground cities in such circumstances. They will simply build downward in cities that already exist.
2. Floating cities are also impractical by themselves. They may exist as temporary edifices for the purpose of organizing a strike or some other major undertaking but the lack of direct transportation and the need for a constant force to be applied in order to maintain their position would make them cost inefficient and short lived. The only condition in which floating cities would be more permanent would be if an underwater city existed below it; in which case the city below water already occupies the space. NOTE: all current floating cities are not cities unto themselves. They are extensions of already existing cities.
3. Orbital cities are a very grey area. One could reason that maintenance wouldn't be so bad since position is relatively stable once a geosynchronous orbit is achieved and sunlight could provide the energy needed to heat. However, building an orbital city, particularly without a HUGE technology lead would probably be as cost ineffective as building an underground city. While building small orbital habitats wouldn't be too bad, particularly for scientific use; building a habitat with the capabilities of maintaining a population comparable to cities would be largely impractical.

To be completely honest, underwater cities are somewhat cost inefficient as well. But as long as there is technology to withstand the pressure they at least have the following benefits (unlike the types mentioned above):

1. They will provide easy access to valuable resources which would be more difficult to obtain without them. This is why we made frozen methane a requirement to build an underwater city in the G.E. mod. An underwater city could only be built on a plot which had frozen methane within its workable area.
2. They can be build without having a need to excavate millions of metric tonnes of earth.
3. The only extra energy that an underwater city would need to be maintained would be for heat which can be provided by the methane above (another reason why the methane was required).
4. Their is direct access to fast, easy transportation through undersea tunnels.
5. They provide a scientific opportunity that would otherwise be unavailable. (Long term studies of underwater life; geologic studies; etc...)

 

[primem0ver]

1. I agree here, do you have a link for the source of Genetic Era?

I haven't posted it but I can. I will upload a zip of it to my google docs and post a link. I also believe I remember seeing code for recalculating trade routes but I am uncertain if it would help in C2C since C2C is so much more complex.