Underwater Cities Development

[primem0ver]

Scale it a bit irreverent in this game. We have HUGE units and a city that only takes one tile. Note that tunnels would just use the road style graphics so they would appear small. We could always have a cave system use road-like graphics but have then generate naturally on the map rather than made by a civ.

True enough to some extent. That is why I tend to think of the cultural zones around "cities" as states, with the true city being the single tile.

 

[Hydromancerx]

That looks more reasonable, with perhaps some very small pockets (1-2spc max) of open caverns.

If you get the ability to tunnel, it would be a very bad thing, I'd think, to tunnel into a volcanic collumn, an aquifer or a pocket of oil, no? That'd basically force that underworld terrain type to invade your tunnel system and at minimum destroy the poor unit that broke in. Maybe advanced sonic techs could give you extra visibility beyond the immediate tunnels to help you avoid this fate.

Yeah it would be cool to somehow hide nearby ore deposits. To some extent the fog of war should do this. But having hidden minerals would be great to find especially it was important ones like gold, uranium or oil.

As for small pockets of open caverns I do not see why not. It happens in real life, why not in game? Some can be HUGE.

Note in the picture it show the "paths" road type. We can always make the graphic look differently but I thought it did not look that bad actually.

 

[ls612]

The problem with having "coast" = "continental shelf" in game terms is that on an Earth map you end up with only two (or three) continents since iirc coast joins regions. It means that small ships even rafts will be able to get to places we don't want them to get to for game purposes.

But they both are approximately the same thing in C2C.

I'm actually beginning to warm to the idea of a sixth multi-map for underground things, now that I see it's potential. We'd first need to actually make multi-maps though.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

But they both are approximately the same thing in C2C.

They are not even remotely the same thing (except at the beach/shore interface). One is on the surface of the water while the other is at the bottom. Coast is the size it is because you can't go smaller than one plot. there are places on Earth where the shoreline plummets to the Abysmal Plain without the intermediary shelf. At other places the shelf extends many plots out into the ocean and would connect places we would not want connected for game play if you treated them as coast.

 

[AIAndy]

I'm really hoping it won't be all that long to switch... I have a lot of faith in the processing streamlining skills Koshling and AIAndy bring to the table here.

Switching between multiple maps should be quite similar to switching between viewports in terms of processing power (the maps could actually be viewports in one large map).

 

[primem0ver]

I suggested a solution to this debate. If we implement the multi-map approach this is my suggestion:

Good point. However, here again, my comments about the "pre-modern" view being separated from the "modern" view apply. The ancients didn't exactly use a measuring stick to say... "ok... ships can't go beyond this point." They simply feared going too far from the coast. So the traditional coast view can be for the normal map in the early game. Later that coast view can be matched with the actual continental shelf since by the modern era, everyone will be able to at least navigate the oceans anyway.

 

[Thunderbrd]

They are not even remotely the same thing (except at the beach/shore interface). One is on the surface of the water while the other is at the bottom. Coast is the size it is because you can't go smaller than one plot. there are places on Earth where the shoreline plummets to the Abysmal Plain without the intermediary shelf. At other places the shelf extends many plots out into the ocean and would connect places we would not want connected for game play if you treated them as coast.

If it counts for anything, I'm seeing your point clearly here. Coast takes on a definition of ONLY one space from land and extends out from land in one space everywhere land meets the sea. But continental shelves can vary from 0-2 spaces out from the land. This makes total sense and if we're able to do any of this in the first place, that shouldn't be outside of the realm of doability.

Switching between multiple maps should be quite similar to switching between viewports in terms of processing power (the maps could actually be viewports in one large map).

Hmm... that last concept could be problematic for wrap-around edges couldn't it? I'm leaning towards the Z axis definitions for additional maps as seeming the easiest way to control things in code but that's just theoretical and based on my limited conception of how multi-maps could be done in the first place. Then again, with the Z axis definitions, in a way, it would be just one big map wouldn't it?

 

[AIAndy]

Hmm... that last concept could be problematic for wrap-around edges couldn't it? I'm leaning towards the Z axis definitions for additional maps as seeming the easiest way to control things in code but that's just theoretical and based on my limited conception of how multi-maps could be done in the first place. Then again, with the Z axis definitions, in a way, it would be just one big map wouldn't it?

In the end it just depends on how you present the multi maps to different parts of your code (and those parts need to understand that properly).
What I mainly wanted to say is that in terms of switching time it only matters that you present a different viewport to the graphics engine, regardless of if that viewport is part of a huge 2d map, a 3d map or one of an array of separate map objects.

 

[Koshling]

In the end it just depends on how you present the multi maps to different parts of your code (and those parts need to understand that properly).
What I mainly wanted to say is that in terms of switching time it only matters that you present a different viewport to the graphics engine, regardless of if that viewport is part of a huge 2d map, a 3d map or one of an array of separate map objects.

The intention which I discussed with Lytning, would be for all coordinates on units/cities etc. to be stored as a tuple of (plot, mapId). Essentially this can be thought of as a 'Z access' but I hate to use tat twerm, because it normally refers to height.

Map switches will cost exactly as much as viewport switches, since they are the same thing really (you are just switchin viewports to a viewport that happens to be a view into a different map)

 

[Thunderbrd]

Maybe it would somehow be more helpful if we actually made Z Axis a potential height definition (I was thinking underwater and outerspace could have a number of height layers that would make the map truly 3d - think of the strategy! (and of course, think of the pain in the arse trying to use the mouse to select a go-to target...) and have an M Axis to define the separation of maps? 4 dimensions of mapping! Yay! lol

 

[Daedwartin]

C2C, the only game where having a 4-axis map can still make sense in 3 dimensions...unless we start throwing in other universe...then to scientifically understand whats going on would require entire fields of physics to be developed...

at the rate we are going, this is going to turn us all into generals. Thunderbird, i think that last idea would be splendid to see

 

[ls612]

Maybe it would somehow be more helpful if we actually made Z Axis a potential height definition (I was thinking underwater and outerspace could have a number of height layers that would make the map truly 3d - think of the strategy! (and of course, think of the pain in the arse trying to use the mouse to select a go-to target...) and have an M Axis to define the separation of maps? 4 dimensions of mapping! Yay! lol

We're getting a bit ahead of ourselves aren't we. We haven't even implemented a basic multi-map capability, and you're already talking about expanding it's features! That's the C2C team though I suppose, but I really think we should be focusing on basic things, before moving on to planning more advanced ones.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sometimes we have to think ahead to set the stage correctly for other things we want to do so we don't have to go back over and rewrite everything we've set up so far on a subject. That's why I brought it up now. For consideration of eventual goals beyond the immediate establishment of multi-maps.

 

[GiuseppeIII]

How are multimaps coming along anyway haven't heard much about progress with them for awhile

 

[Mouthwash]

How are multimaps coming along anyway haven't heard much about progress with them for awhile

They crashed and burned so hard strategyonly quit and now mods Civ V.

 

[GiuseppeIII]

They crashed and burned so hard strategyonly quit and now mods Civ V.

What????

 

[Mouthwash]

What????

I was joking. But there was no way you could have known that.

 

[ls612]

I was joking. But there was no way you could have known that.

Here's the serious answer. We are still planning them, but Koshling wants to work for another month or so on AI tweaks and we need to get the Combat Mod fully integrated and stable, so we won't start work on them probably for a month or two.

 

[Galacticat42]

Here is what underwater cities look like in Warlords. Notice how there is very little water surface detail to make it obvious that the object is above water... even if it is obvious when compared to the heights of things on land and objects next too it.

This is different in BtS. Now the surface of the water will crash against the side, making it obvious. We can make the outer shell a bit smaller, maybe change its shape to be less of a ball and more of a dome. (Or simply lower the graphic so that it sinks below the ground more).

Sorry... the other attached pictures are for the discussion on graded invisibility and vision improvements.

I know this is a bit late but... Why not just put a mask over the model so the ocean graphics stay on top of the model no matter how far the model rises above the water level?

 

[Daedwartin]

just realized something. If we say for the planets have their be multi z levels as it has been suggested, it might be possible to create airborne cites...and gives us a good mechanic to work with for gas giants.