Melior Traiano
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 220
I'm stuck in the same situation. Is it possible to set up two separate BtS installs? I'd hate to have to wipe everything out to start over.
UNGY-03 The Gods of the Aztec
- Thread starter ungy
- Start date
I'm stuck in the same situation. Is it possible to set up two separate BtS installs? I'd hate to have to wipe everything out to start over.
On demands from the AI:
The AI makes demands when there is something to demand. From their perspective, this means:
1. Civics. This is quite rare in any case and a cursory inspection suggests that only Zara has an even semi-early favored civic (Theocracy). EDIT: Suryavarman prefers Organized Religion, so we should either avoid Monotheism or revolt as soon as we discover it (or make up our minds that Suryavarman is not a likely ally).
2. Religion. Obviously they can only do this once they have a religion and it has spread to us. It is obviously premature to make judgments about this without knowing in advance what the religious scenario will be, but it may be a good idea to convert preemptively once a religion spreads to us to avoid having to turn someone down. Other things being equal, perhaps Boudica's religion will be best. Better some good friends and enemies than everyone at Cautious or worse (we WILL have demands sooner or later, however careful we are). In any case, we do not suffer from anarchy when switching, so we can always change back if we find that we have bet on the wrong horse.
3. Resources. We should trade or, if need be, gift resources as soon as we have two or more (seafood ...) and a trade route. The minor benefit to them should be trivial compared to the diplomatic benefits to us over the long term, as I don't think that the refusing-a-demand penalty ever goes away.
4. Techs. This is one reason why the construction "every AI already has it" path is useful. We cannot have demands for techs, hence cannot receive penalties for refusing them.
5. Break off relations with a hated AI. We need to come up with a preferred list of friends early (can be adjusted later thanks to Spiritual making it cheap to shift blocs, plus the fact that most favored civics will come into play late in the game). Then we should make sure not to gift resources to or sign open borders with their enemies, lest they should demand that we break them off and we be forced to refuse.
6. War. The AI will only do this if it is itself at war. Thus, if a war breaks out we need to consider this possibility in advance. If a friend is at war with a distant or weak civilization, it might be worth while to declare preemptively and not wait for them to ask (since we would have to refuse).
In general, therefore, we need to anticipate potential demands and make sure that any potential reasonable requests from civs we want as friends have already been granted before they make them.
The AI makes demands when there is something to demand. From their perspective, this means:
1. Civics. This is quite rare in any case and a cursory inspection suggests that only Zara has an even semi-early favored civic (Theocracy). EDIT: Suryavarman prefers Organized Religion, so we should either avoid Monotheism or revolt as soon as we discover it (or make up our minds that Suryavarman is not a likely ally).
2. Religion. Obviously they can only do this once they have a religion and it has spread to us. It is obviously premature to make judgments about this without knowing in advance what the religious scenario will be, but it may be a good idea to convert preemptively once a religion spreads to us to avoid having to turn someone down. Other things being equal, perhaps Boudica's religion will be best. Better some good friends and enemies than everyone at Cautious or worse (we WILL have demands sooner or later, however careful we are). In any case, we do not suffer from anarchy when switching, so we can always change back if we find that we have bet on the wrong horse.
3. Resources. We should trade or, if need be, gift resources as soon as we have two or more (seafood ...) and a trade route. The minor benefit to them should be trivial compared to the diplomatic benefits to us over the long term, as I don't think that the refusing-a-demand penalty ever goes away.
4. Techs. This is one reason why the construction "every AI already has it" path is useful. We cannot have demands for techs, hence cannot receive penalties for refusing them.
5. Break off relations with a hated AI. We need to come up with a preferred list of friends early (can be adjusted later thanks to Spiritual making it cheap to shift blocs, plus the fact that most favored civics will come into play late in the game). Then we should make sure not to gift resources to or sign open borders with their enemies, lest they should demand that we break them off and we be forced to refuse.
6. War. The AI will only do this if it is itself at war. Thus, if a war breaks out we need to consider this possibility in advance. If a friend is at war with a distant or weak civilization, it might be worth while to declare preemptively and not wait for them to ask (since we would have to refuse).
In general, therefore, we need to anticipate potential demands and make sure that any potential reasonable requests from civs we want as friends have already been granted before they make them.
silverbullet
King
Hi.
Sorry I was not able to play this week.
I guess we can keep the roster as is and Mystifly will play next
Sorry I was not able to play this week.
I guess we can keep the roster as is and Mystifly will play next
![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
)Sorry for lack of pics; photobucket site is being worked on so I can't upload them.
played 17 quiet turns
(2)
Settle Tlatelolco, hoping to get that wheat
<imagine city being founded 1W of sugar>
(4)
Spot new QSH city
<imagine shot of chinese borders near grassland horse>
SB now has ABC; do this trade
<imagine pic of Writing for Pottery trade with SB>
As well as this with QSH
<imagine pic of Fish for Calms deal with QSH>
BTW Aesthetics is selected as next tech.
(5)
Tenochtitlan Axe > Worker
IBT
SB converts to Buddhism
(6)
2pop-whip worker @ Teno
(7)
I see a buddhist missionary (wang) that must be heading towards SB so I OB with Kon hoping to get that missionary
IBT
Boudica finishes ABC
11 (IBT)
Sure enought, Buddhism spreads in Tenochtitlan. Also there is a barb city popping up near our borders.
<imagine of s/s showing message of Buddhism spreading and shot of Barb borders just W of Tenochtitlan>
12 (IBT)
Fish for Calms with QSH is cancelled, as that barb city blocks our trade route.
14 (IBT)
Sury converts to Buddhism
15 (IBT)
Sury builds the GW (fairly late)
17
I end my set here.
---
Another settler @ Teno is due in 1 for the cost of one forest. I'm not so sure this was a good idea as we're running very short on cash but considering how close QSH is settling atm we must block him off asap. Razing that barb city will surely help. I already killed 1/4 archers in there. There also is an archer approaching Teotihuacan. There is only one axe in the proximity as most other units are more to the west; the axe is on a hill at least.
Land:
<imagine shot of our lands>
Tech:
<imagine boring shot of techscreen, showing Boudica, Zara and SB with ABC>
On the map you see I'm building a rax in teo as we somehow need a tiny bit of power to avoid getting dogpiled early. Tlatelolco is working on a lib as it desperately needs the culture. BTW we really need IW as both newer cities have few good (food) tiles to work without IW.
BTW I also played with 3.13
View attachment UNGY-03 BC-1000.CivBeyondSwordSave
played 17 quiet turns
(2)
Settle Tlatelolco, hoping to get that wheat
<imagine city being founded 1W of sugar>
(4)
Spot new QSH city
<imagine shot of chinese borders near grassland horse>
SB now has ABC; do this trade
<imagine pic of Writing for Pottery trade with SB>
As well as this with QSH
<imagine pic of Fish for Calms deal with QSH>
BTW Aesthetics is selected as next tech.
(5)
Tenochtitlan Axe > Worker
IBT
SB converts to Buddhism
(6)
2pop-whip worker @ Teno
(7)
I see a buddhist missionary (wang) that must be heading towards SB so I OB with Kon hoping to get that missionary
IBT
Boudica finishes ABC
11 (IBT)
Sure enought, Buddhism spreads in Tenochtitlan. Also there is a barb city popping up near our borders.
<imagine of s/s showing message of Buddhism spreading and shot of Barb borders just W of Tenochtitlan>
12 (IBT)
Fish for Calms with QSH is cancelled, as that barb city blocks our trade route.
14 (IBT)
Sury converts to Buddhism
15 (IBT)
Sury builds the GW (fairly late)
17
I end my set here.
---
Another settler @ Teno is due in 1 for the cost of one forest. I'm not so sure this was a good idea as we're running very short on cash but considering how close QSH is settling atm we must block him off asap. Razing that barb city will surely help. I already killed 1/4 archers in there. There also is an archer approaching Teotihuacan. There is only one axe in the proximity as most other units are more to the west; the axe is on a hill at least.
Land:
<imagine shot of our lands>
Tech:
<imagine boring shot of techscreen, showing Boudica, Zara and SB with ABC>
On the map you see I'm building a rax in teo as we somehow need a tiny bit of power to avoid getting dogpiled early. Tlatelolco is working on a lib as it desperately needs the culture. BTW we really need IW as both newer cities have few good (food) tiles to work without IW.
BTW I also played with 3.13
View attachment UNGY-03 BC-1000.CivBeyondSwordSave
a quick look gives me a few nits--
why did we run our cash down to 0 to research like 20% of aesthetics? Much better to run at 0% research until we're sure that's the way we want to go--costs us nothing and gives us the opportunity to change, run deficit, fund event
Tenochtitlan is not working the clams--why?
This game is not going to be a walkover like the last one so we need to play carefully. I know it's tough to follow Rusten tho
I think we need to settle the near the plains horse or else we risk getting chopped up
why did we run our cash down to 0 to research like 20% of aesthetics? Much better to run at 0% research until we're sure that's the way we want to go--costs us nothing and gives us the opportunity to change, run deficit, fund event
Tenochtitlan is not working the clams--why?
This game is not going to be a walkover like the last one so we need to play carefully. I know it's tough to follow Rusten tho
I think we need to settle the near the plains horse or else we risk getting chopped up
Sorry to criticise but I can't hold it in.
- None of our cities are connected, not even to domestic trade routes. We've had the cities and worker turns for quite some time now and if we had roaded to SB (Mound city) we would have an extra 6 commerce per turn and another happy face in Tenochtitlan soon. It doesn't require that many worker turns either as he's between our cities.
- Library in Tenochtitlan. We don't have much commerce so we have to run scientists. Getting the library up early is really important. Once it's up it's also very important to have the willpower to keep running 2 at all times. We can't afford a 4th city like this. We're going to have a very low slider, so we'll have to settle scientists here to keep research going.
These things are kinda critical on this particular map.
Congrats on your holiday though!
- None of our cities are connected, not even to domestic trade routes. We've had the cities and worker turns for quite some time now and if we had roaded to SB (Mound city) we would have an extra 6 commerce per turn and another happy face in Tenochtitlan soon. It doesn't require that many worker turns either as he's between our cities.
- Library in Tenochtitlan. We don't have much commerce so we have to run scientists. Getting the library up early is really important. Once it's up it's also very important to have the willpower to keep running 2 at all times. We can't afford a 4th city like this. We're going to have a very low slider, so we'll have to settle scientists here to keep research going.
These things are kinda critical on this particular map.
Congrats on your holiday though!
I knew that the set I played hasn't been that good but I saw no other way to improve our situation.
I appreciate your criticism as I try to learn in every game I play, especially in SGs. I hope we can find a way to seal off some land (the map isn't really convenient for us), stay alive and don't go broke.
I attempted that, after every city has 1-2 improved tiles. Since we don't have sailing it's pretty tuff. Connecting copper city to the river would be easy but road towards an other city was stopped by barbs. The plains ivory tiles (IIRC) was roaded once but pillaged again. We need more units/cities to fogbust if we want to have some roads that aren't always pillaged. I also built a worker partly for roading, partly in anticipation of having to chop this jungle.Rusten said:
I considered the library hard but decided against it as we really need to stop QSH settling our land. He is settling more and more in a way that will cut off proper connection to the mainland, including our 2 other cities. These two cities are btw already under cultural pressure. I'm not sure settling banana/silk/wheat city was that good as I'd rather have 1 more SB city to deal with than 3 more QSH cities.
I appreciate your criticism as I try to learn in every game I play, especially in SGs. I hope we can find a way to seal off some land (the map isn't really convenient for us), stay alive and don't go broke.
You can't hold up this SG like I just did 
silverbullet
King
Hi,
I am taking 4 days off for Canada Day. I suggest you skip me this time. I will be back on Wednesday. If I have internet connection I will watch with interest.
I am taking 4 days off for Canada Day. I suggest you skip me this time. I will be back on Wednesday. If I have internet connection I will watch with interest.
Melior Traiano
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 220
So I didn't get any response regarding the ability to have a 3.13 install separate from a 3.17 install. Can I go ahead & play with a 3.17 install? I don't have the time right now to both futz with reinstalling & also playing turns. Please send instructions.
Melior Traiano
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 220
Well, it's a moot point because I'm getting a CTD when I start clicking around. I'm gonna sit this game out. Maybe it's just as well, to avoid potentially messing the game up for others using 3.13.
hmm I'm OK and I've also got 3.17.
Well, I finally got back and could look at the save. Thoughts:
1. What are we researching aesthetics for? If we want an elephant rush we CANNOT AFFORD TO WASTE TIME. Not only will longbows stymie us but we don't want to be forced by our variant into accepting a capitulation when the victim still has juicy land. Not to mention that half our lands are spectacularly useless without iron working. Perhaps I was partly responsible for this when I suggested that GL might still be viable. If so, mea culpa and let's get this back on track.
Sailing is cheap(ish) and might be worthwhile for trade routes/ lighthouse in capital. So I suggest IW -> Sailing - > Math -> Masonry -> Construction -> whip whip whip.
2. I should have mentioned this earlier (hard to tell just from screenshots...) but we've boxed ourselves into a corner with our expansion. (Yes, this is my fault as much as anyone else's as I approved the plan). We need to fill the gap between the capital and Ivory City, which means founding Uselessville somewhere to our north. Later on, with bureaucracy/biology, we can make that city decent by irrigating everything in sight and working the hills, but in the meantime (including during the rush, when it matters) we are left with a city that will slow our research and otherwise be nothing but a liability. I recommend putting the settler there, guarded with an axe, and founding if one of our rivals sends a settler. Other expansion is pointless. When planning a rush, it is better to have fewer good sites than a lot of useless cities that do nothing until after the critical point is reached. Only exception is if we can take (or, more likely, raze/resettle) the barb city.
3. Why are we not working the second clams? They are as good as a plains hill when producing a settler and also provide two coins.
4. As suggested earlier, I think that we should gift the big B the spare clams. Only trade we could make would be with Zara for crabs, which we don't need. (EDIT: Tlatelolco might actually be able to use the health until we get rid of some jungle). The diplo points are more useful. We do NOT want demands earlier than we can help. When a second ivory is online, renegotiate, hopefully for something useful.
5. WE NEED TO WHIP THAT LIBRARY IN OUR CAPITAL RIGHT NOW I MEAN RIGHT NOW AIEEEEEEEEEEEEE. Not that I'm saying anything original. Then granary, axes, then some workers once at happy cap, while running as many scientists as we can while working both crabs.
6. If someone steals that barb city from us, it would be bad. Not fatal, but bad. I was really hoping to get cows/fish/rice city for whipping elephants. I see we have an axe ready to steal if it looks weak - nice work. Keep it there and add more when we can.
7. Might be worth revolting to Buddhism. No one has another religion yet and it will avoid demands. We can always switch back for free.
Summary thoughts for the next round:
Switch research to IW, put settler 1 SW (suggestion, not sure) of horse, whip library ASAP (switch off research in the meantime), then work food tiles and scientists while making granary, whip granary, then make axes when we are not at happy cap and workers when we are. I am not certain about the granary, but we need it sooner or later to whip elephants so it might as well be sooner. We may prefer to make a couple of axes to take barb city though.
1. What are we researching aesthetics for? If we want an elephant rush we CANNOT AFFORD TO WASTE TIME. Not only will longbows stymie us but we don't want to be forced by our variant into accepting a capitulation when the victim still has juicy land. Not to mention that half our lands are spectacularly useless without iron working. Perhaps I was partly responsible for this when I suggested that GL might still be viable. If so, mea culpa and let's get this back on track.
Sailing is cheap(ish) and might be worthwhile for trade routes/ lighthouse in capital. So I suggest IW -> Sailing - > Math -> Masonry -> Construction -> whip whip whip.
2. I should have mentioned this earlier (hard to tell just from screenshots...) but we've boxed ourselves into a corner with our expansion. (Yes, this is my fault as much as anyone else's as I approved the plan). We need to fill the gap between the capital and Ivory City, which means founding Uselessville somewhere to our north. Later on, with bureaucracy/biology, we can make that city decent by irrigating everything in sight and working the hills, but in the meantime (including during the rush, when it matters) we are left with a city that will slow our research and otherwise be nothing but a liability. I recommend putting the settler there, guarded with an axe, and founding if one of our rivals sends a settler. Other expansion is pointless. When planning a rush, it is better to have fewer good sites than a lot of useless cities that do nothing until after the critical point is reached. Only exception is if we can take (or, more likely, raze/resettle) the barb city.
3. Why are we not working the second clams? They are as good as a plains hill when producing a settler and also provide two coins.
4. As suggested earlier, I think that we should gift the big B the spare clams. Only trade we could make would be with Zara for crabs, which we don't need. (EDIT: Tlatelolco might actually be able to use the health until we get rid of some jungle). The diplo points are more useful. We do NOT want demands earlier than we can help. When a second ivory is online, renegotiate, hopefully for something useful.
5. WE NEED TO WHIP THAT LIBRARY IN OUR CAPITAL RIGHT NOW I MEAN RIGHT NOW AIEEEEEEEEEEEEE. Not that I'm saying anything original. Then granary, axes, then some workers once at happy cap, while running as many scientists as we can while working both crabs.
6. If someone steals that barb city from us, it would be bad. Not fatal, but bad. I was really hoping to get cows/fish/rice city for whipping elephants. I see we have an axe ready to steal if it looks weak - nice work. Keep it there and add more when we can.
7. Might be worth revolting to Buddhism. No one has another religion yet and it will avoid demands. We can always switch back for free.
Summary thoughts for the next round:
Switch research to IW, put settler 1 SW (suggestion, not sure) of horse, whip library ASAP (switch off research in the meantime), then work food tiles and scientists while making granary, whip granary, then make axes when we are not at happy cap and workers when we are. I am not certain about the granary, but we need it sooner or later to whip elephants so it might as well be sooner. We may prefer to make a couple of axes to take barb city though.
I disagree with the tech plan. I agree we will have difficulty but remember our economy sucks (yes it will get better when we make some obvious fixes but IT STILL SUCKS and WILL SUCK). So we have to trade our way out of this hole. Aesthetics is for trade bait and we have some beakers in on it.
If we get lucky we could get a whole treasure trove of tech out of it (especially with some partial research). At worst we get IW and sailing.
I'm torn between defending our corridor to our northern cities and razing/rebuilding the barb city. I'm inclined to go for the barb city. We'll have OB until we rush someone anyway. We really need that big food city.
I agree with taking buddhism and trading--we've been lucky so far on demands--those seem like no-brainers to me.
I understand how it happened--(although I disagree with the strat of piecemeal attacking barb cities)--but it's almost humourous to have barbs spawning out of two fog tiles to cause us such problems when we have aggressive axes.
Melior if you get your game working with these saves you can come back in.
I think we're at a critical juncture here so I'm OK if we have more discussion and wait a few days to play.
Olodune you there?
I agree with ungy about aesthetics. Now that we've started it we might as well finish it. I think there's a slight obsession with having our cities share borders, I don't think that's so important. It's surely the best idea in general, but I don't think it's worth founding a junk city for--our economy is going to very challenging so we should keep costs at a minimum.
Let's not rush too much into construction and elephants. Yes, the AI might/will get longbows, but CR axes and siege can handle those (especially aggressive axes as we get cover easy). There's no point in reaching construction and then have 0 research and no economy to support a war or units. We should be patient and trade what's possible and possibly research Currency after trading for mathematics, IW and the alphabet. An elephant war differs from a regular construction war in the fact that there's a bigger time window; we can delay it until our economy is up and running.
We don't need sailing to connect our cities--roading is faster. There aren't that many worker turns putting up a road to SB's city.
I haven't seen Olodune online in weeks so our roster is really dropping.
Let's not rush too much into construction and elephants. Yes, the AI might/will get longbows, but CR axes and siege can handle those (especially aggressive axes as we get cover easy). There's no point in reaching construction and then have 0 research and no economy to support a war or units. We should be patient and trade what's possible and possibly research Currency after trading for mathematics, IW and the alphabet. An elephant war differs from a regular construction war in the fact that there's a bigger time window; we can delay it until our economy is up and running.
We don't need sailing to connect our cities--roading is faster. There aren't that many worker turns putting up a road to SB's city.
I haven't seen Olodune online in weeks so our roster is really dropping.
this needs to be a top priority--not just getting our cities connected but getting the road to SB.
well good thing we had an oversize roster
Rusten: do you like razing/rebuilding the barb city with our settler?
Seems like if we don't we could see a chinese city at the wine/fish.
Atropos why don't you take the next set and then silverbullet?
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