Unhappiness of conquered cities forever?

[Bkeela]

In the livesteam they mentioned conquered cities suffered greater unhappiness, but surely this penalty is lifted when the civilization is wiped out as with Civ 4? Did this not happen in Civ 5?

 

[homan1983]

From the looks of it it's only during war.

In exchange, it's likely conquered cities don't get increased district cost from settling cities/building those districts.

 

[stealth_nsk]

In the stream developers spoke about disadvantage of expanding through conquest. So it looked like conquest has longer consequences than just the war during which the city was taken. We don't know for sure, though. It's a good question to ask devs.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

I think it should be forever. You could raze cities and then found you own which have many obvious disadvantages so it should have some good advantages doing so.

 

[juanpavo]

From the looks of it it's only during war.

Looks like the war weariness "unhappiness" in captured cities from conquest occurs either:

1. during war only
2. decaying over time
3. forever

I'm guessing (2). I really hope it isn't (3).

 

[Magil]

I'm hoping that conquered populations slowly integrate into your society over time, like in IV (though IV also had the odd mechanic that wiping out a Civ instantly removed its nationality from all cities, we probably don't need that part). It'd be a little absurd if they're still upset about being "occupied" 1,000 years later.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Looks like the war weariness "unhappiness" in captured cities from conquest occurs either:

1. during war only
2. decaying over time
3. forever

I'm guessing (2). I really hope it isn't (3).

I think

-War weariness only happens during War, All cities get it
-conquered cities (whenever they were conquered) get More war weariness during war

I'm hoping that conquered populations slowly integrate into your society over time, like in IV (though IV also had the odd mechanic that wiping out a Civ instantly removed its nationality from all cities, we probably don't need that part). It'd be a little absurd if they're still upset about being "occupied" 1,000 years later.

If it happens it should be Very slow, and it should reverse in cities that are unhappy, were founded by civs that have high culture, etc.

say "Identity" is a constant that gets
+100 when you found

Each turn you have it
+1
-10% IF the city is unhappy

Foreign Identities present (each turn)
+1% IF the city is content
+3% to Foreign Identities that have lifetime culture > 1/2 yours
+6% to Foreign Identities that have lifetime culture > yours
+10% to Foreign Identities that have lifetime culture > 2 x yours

Then the balance of Identities determines the bonus war weariness (and other amenity penalties)

 

[Uberfrog]

I'm hoping that conquered populations slowly integrate into your society over time, like in IV (though IV also had the odd mechanic that wiping out a Civ instantly removed its nationality from all cities, we probably don't need that part). It'd be a little absurd if they're still upset about being "occupied" 1,000 years later.

I don't know... the Chinese ruled Vietnam off-and-on for about 1000 years, I'm not sure the Vietnamese ever considered themselves as being fully integrated

As long as it's manageable, I don't see the problem. Vast conquered Empires should behave differently to freshly colonised ones. You always have the choice to raze and resettle .

 

[kaspergm]

I'm really rooting for cultural assimilation over time as well. I really liked that part of Civ4.

 

[leandrombraz]

I'm rewatching the stream, what I got from it is that War Weariness happens only when you are at war and can affect all your cities. Occupied cities are the first to feel its effects, I guess it also increase faster overtime. In the stream they are at war with Scythia, reason why Kristiansand is getting -6 war weariness. What I understand is that once they are at peace, this war weariness will slowly decline into it reach zero, then gradually increase again if they get into another war.

 

[Big J Money]

We're assuming this is all lumped under war-weariness. What if there is an additional amenities penalty from simply being conquered? It would mean it's not listed on the screen that lists all the amenities modifiers though...

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'm rewatching the stream, what I got from it is that War Weariness happens only when you are at war and can affect all your cities. Occupied cities are the first to feel its effects, I guess it also increase faster overtime. In the stream they are at war with Scythia, reason why Kristiansand is getting -6 war weariness. What I understand is that once they are at peace, this war weariness will slowly decline into it reach zero, then gradually increase again if they get into another war.

if its like civ4 (which made sense)

There was a War weariness 'counter' that went up in war and decayed in peace.
However, it only caused unhappiness when you were at war..declare peace and the unhappiness from WW went to 0 immediately..declare war again 2 turns later, and most of that unhappiness is back.

 

[juanpavo]

What if there is an additional amenities penalty from simply being conquered?

Yes, this is the primary concern of the OP (and me).

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Just raze the city and found your own. Yes the world will hate you but it is pretty hard to be both a warmonger and liked.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Just raze the city and found your own. Yes the world will hate you but it is pretty hard to be both a warmonger and liked.

well that means you have to build more settlers+districts (which increase in cost)

Also the world hates you more for keeping a city than razing it (because keeping it means you are benefiting from someone else's investment.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I don't know... the Chinese ruled Vietnam off-and-on for about 1000 years, I'm not sure the Vietnamese ever considered themselves as being fully integrated

Off-and-on is the keyword here.

Try an unbroken line, which is what Civ conquests tend to be.
Compare with former Yue peoples who used to occupy large swathes of southern China who are now fully assimilated and integral to China.

 

[Ebrim]

I like it. Conquered people should be always that little bit extra ready to give you the finger. When times get rough people are capable of coming up with even the smallest differences to justify not being part of your failure and local elites are all too happy to take a grab at power. Any amount of integration should somewhat mitigate that effect but never eliminate it.

 

[Big J Money]

I like it too.

I feel like it civ you can always choose to not rush too soon, but instead focus on a few good production cities to crank out troops and take cities later, at no penalty aside from the happiness speed bump of building a courthouse.

I think a large peaceful empire should be easier to maintain (because it's harder to acquire), and a conquered empire should be harder to maintain (because it's easier to acquire).

 

[beorn]

I'm less interested in historical verisimilitude than I am in gameplay, and I'm thinking that Firaxis has come up with an excellent solution to a tough problem.

Domination victories have been too easy on anything but very high difficulty levels, because the tactical AI cannot challenge human players.

But now a would-be domination victor faces some real hurdles, aside from tactical AI. Not only warmonger penalties, but a bunch of conquered cities will weigh you down if you continue to wage war. I'm sure it can still be accomplished, but not with impunity. And meanwhile, going by the Sythian AI versus Congo, it appears the AI is actually a threat to win by one of the other methods.

I like it!

 

[Big J Money]

First of all, my original post was simply wrong because I hadn't watched the recent live stream yet. It's clear in the video that the city conquering penalty is indeed lumped into the war weariness category. I'm surprised nobody called me on that.

Secondly, I agree with beorn. I don't think the mechanic slows down warmongering directly, since there is no global happiness mechanic. But it does mean these new, angry cities suck up amenities to try and placate the populace. And thankfully the unhappiness penalty isn't so harsh that it completely would stop a warmonger in their tracks, but you have to be smart about what cities you take. You really want to focus on capital cities as much as possible without taking everything in sight.

I am starting to lean in the direction of wanting some control of amenities distribution though. Even if it's something like the ability to set a target level for each city "unhappy, content, happy" that adjusts the Resource Governor's priority setting algorithm.