Unique Units

[SadoMacho]

T-34 of the USSR are more the kind of tanks that should get the bonus against armored units, if a second UU would be introduced

 

[Cethegus]

T-34 of the USSR are more the kind of tanks that should get the bonus against armored units, if a second UU would be introduced

Every time I see Russia in Civ IV, I cringe a little. The Tsarist era Cossacks and Soviet Research Institutes represent a very poor sync to me - I wish Firaxis chose either one and went with it all the way, Russia or the Soviet Union. Kremlin would have been acceptable as a Russian UB or a more Soviet UU to replace the Cossack would have worked just fine. Russia's flaws in Civ IV have become rather topical for me recently now that they have a UP as well.

It's up to Rhye to decide what to do about them, if he does deem them lacking somehow. Personally I'd like to see them have the same UP the Moscowites have in RFCE, -50 maintenance and civic costs in all cities. Don't know so much about the possible changes in UU/UB.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Every time I see Russia in Civ IV, I cringe a little. The Tsarist era Cossacks and Soviet Research Institutes represent a very poor sync to me - I wish Firaxis chose either one and went with it all the way, Russia or the Soviet Union.

I like it when civs represent themselves in all their incantations.

 

[scu98rkr]

Me too,

Im happy with the cossacks + Research Institute.

The Research Institute is particularly good as its helps the Russia catch up quickly in the modern era, but means that there research will stagnate as a large empire before this.

 

[JujuLautre]

Commando on tanks o_O isn't that insane ?

About Numidian cav, what about putting their strength back to 6 ?

 

[Rhye]

Germany used to have commando on all units (old UP)...
Then is just commando overpowered or underpowered?

 

[The Q-Meister]

As someone who loves to play Persia, I really like the changes made to the Immortal. The lower movement I don't see being a big issue to the UHV as, like I said previously, I consider the old Immortals generally useless save for cheap garrison in your cities or the initial thrust into Babylon. Maybe I'll send a couple to Turkey to see if I can get a easy city up there but that's about it.

I rely on Horse Archers/War Elephants for the tough battles, historically inaccurate perhaps but best units for a challenging UHV. I have been able to win the UHV on occasion with mainly axe/swords/cats but that was a bit of luck.

I'd love to have the Immortal more of a focal point for the Persian conquests.

 

[PPK]

Panthers arrived too late in the war and only about 6000 units were built. The fact that the represented model is a panther is a bit anachronous in itself if what we want is to represent the blitzkrieg... So let's just pretend that it's a panzer iv instead . Maybe an alternative to commando could be an extra movement point or two. Otherwise tanks could move a little too far on rails...

And I feel the same about the Russian Cossacks... Wouldn't it be kinda cool to get conscripts instead to replace standard infantry? Or some other sort of cheap infantry to represent the human wave tactics that they seemed to use so much.

 

[SadoMacho]

Germany used to have commando on all units (old UP)...
Then is just commando overpowered or underpowered?

If you think there overpowered, then drop the command and keep the 25% vs infantry, but command promotion wouldn't make much difference in europ, but if would be something to counter General Winter. Maybe just a + 25% attack vs Infantry and riffleman would be enough, not vs all gunpowder units and not while defending.

 

[blizzrd]

Australian resources are partially included.

But I don't see how a war elephant in the starting units will make you build more numidian cavalry (without counting that Carthage starts much earlier than Construction)

A starting War Elephant is nothing to do with encouraging the building of Numidian Cavalry (which I don't do anyway, I hire mercs). If a starting War Elephant was included in the mix though, it would help to represent Hannibal's army which most famously included War Elephants.

I know Carthage starts pre-Construction, but consider that the Greeks currently start without Iron Working or Copper/Iron but get two starting Phalanxes. Greek Phalanxes are good as starting units though, and I would think a Carthaginian War Elephant in the starting units would be similarly good.

 

[Rhye]

Phalanxes need Bronze Working.

p.s. shouldn't you update your sig.? You'd better prepare for the new patch!

 

[blizzrd]

Phalanxes need Bronze Working.

p.s. shouldn't you update your sig.? You'd better prepare for the new patch!

Don't they also need Iron/Copper though?

My sig is still accurate for now. I'm yet to update to RFC 1.185 or BTS 3.19 and I am waiting for the next RFC patch before doing so. Looking forward to it, I've got a week of holidays coming up.

 

[Rhye]

oh, then you won't wait long.
I want to release it this week

 

[Cethegus]

If you think there overpowered, then drop the command and keep the 25% vs infantry, but command promotion wouldn't make much difference in europ, but if would be something to counter General Winter. Maybe just a + 25% attack vs Infantry and riffleman would be enough, not vs all gunpowder units and not while defending.

The main gameplay reason why Commando/extra movement point has been suggested is the fact how it helps utilizing the initial Blitz promotion. Personally I'm against either solution (imagine rushing to industrialized Stalingrad in just one turn or moving 3 tiles a turn in undeveloped regions) but it might just be what the Panzer needs. Flanking attack against Riflemen/Infantry would be nigh impossible to counter, however it would help captivating the blitzkrieg tactics better than the +25% combat bonus. At the very least, if it doesn't make the game more strategic it would make it more interesting. But it doesn't change the fact that giving a Tank unit flanking attack against Infantry is be like giving Knight flanking against Longbowmen.

Maybe what it needs is not flanking but more buffed collateral damage. The purpose of the tanks during blitzkrieg was to soften the defenders for the infantry after planes finished bombing down the defenses, no? That can be easily made real with collateral promotions, even without the German Panzer design.

I vote for +25% vs. Armored units and an extra movement point. The fact the Panzer doesn't require Oil (and thus Combustion) would have been enough advantage for a UU in a regular game of Civ; they shouldn't be a whole new unit. Even if the Panzers need to pose a threat to whoever's against them, they're not quite enough to wreck cities just on their own. Whether that is implemented with the inclusion of an extra movement point, collateral damage or flanking is up for interpretation. They've all been proposed.

 

[NerfCothons]

Commando is just too powerful for a tank which is already so good at blitzing. I'd go with a rank or two of drill instead to match both the German stereotype as well as the advantage of a quick attack (first strike, who doesn't enjoy a joke at a German's expense). I'm also shocked that panzers don't require oil with a source sitting within the German flip zone (I know, it's relatively new, I'll give you a pass).

For the Numidian Cavalary, while the desert walking may be advantageous to the AI to keep it's territory better defended from the barbs and maybe even attack Egypt, the human player is going to be putting his cavalry on ships and fighting in places without desert. The Carthaginians were sailors of the Mediterranean first and foremost not wanderers of the desert. I would suggest bringing the unit strength back up to 6 to match the horse archer and give them a fighting chance against the praetorians. You could alternatively give them a second rank of flanking for the 20% additional withdrawl to simulate an early seige effect (they already have the first strike immunity). Carthage should also have a rename of Sur to Tyre. Although I admit I play Carthage a fair amount and am biased.

And btw there are horses in the Maghreb for whoever was asking.

I really like your American civ changes.

I also like the Keshik changes, I would suggest also giving them a couple more Keshiks on spawn to improve an AI Mongolia's chances against China.

I also like what you did with Immortals and bowman. Bowman were too good at repelling the Persian assault while Persian armies became too monolithic. Since I believe we all want to see AI Babylon collapse with relative regularity, giving their UU an ability the AI may not use effectively (except to capture those early neutral cities nearby) seems like a good thing to me.

 

[Rhye]

I think that blitzkrieg can be represented only by commando promotion or ignore movement cost (Ardennes?)

 

[SadoMacho]

The no oil for panzers is from a time in RFC when there wasn't oil in Europ, so Germany never could build panzers (or planes, ships,...). Maybe with the oil there now, this could be dropped.

Maybe the ignore movement cost and +25% attack vs. Infantry/riffleman would do the job to get te bllitzkrieg panzers

 

[kbk]

The no oil for panzers is from a time in RFC when there wasn't oil in Europ, so Germany never could build panzers (or planes, ships,...). Maybe with the oil there now, this could be dropped.

Maybe the ignore movement cost and +25% attack vs. Infantry/riffleman would do the job to get te bllitzkrieg panzers

There is oil in Budapest's big cross, but that's about it for Germany's core area.

Reduced movement costs for panzers would be nuts, but a whole lot of fun.

 

[Bonci]

why don't replace numidian cavalry with something like a phoenician trireme? maybe with cargo or more speed...

 

[NerfCothons]

I think that blitzkrieg can be represented only by commando promotion or ignore movement cost (Ardennes?)

Ignore movement cost then. Imagine the panzers hoping a Russian rail and hitting Russian cities without even taking a turn's worth of general winter.