sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
Or it could take food out of your growth box. since single pop points are too valuable and would favor large nations even more, food out of the box would also feel more realistic.
Unit creation idea
- Thread starter gskyes
- Start date
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
Well, thats why I suggested a change to the way population is measured, though having a food cost might be a good way of simulating it in an abstract fashion.
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
You would still lose pop if you owed more food then in the box, but now a pop point can give you 3-4 units rather than one.
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
Well, I am CERTAINLY not advocating a 1unit=1pop point system Sir_Schwick. As you know, though, I am a strong advocate for completely redesigning the population model for the game. The other issue, though, is to stop high population nations from taking undue advantage of such a system. I think there are several ways to do this: the first would be the resource cost I mentioned earlier-more units means more chance of losing an appropriate strategic resource. Second, is that the nation must have not just the population, but the economy to support a lot of units (i.e. much better system for unit maintainance costs). Thirdly, if you build too many units from a single city, their happiness will decline-especially if units from said city have already been lost in combat. Higher tech units would not only have a MUCH smaller 'population cost', but would have a much higher maintainance cost. What this would mean is that smaller, yet wealthier, nations could start to achieve a greater tactical edge by building more advanced units-ones which can go toe to toe with larger, less sophisticated units, yet be of a much less burden to your population growth!
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
So did you like my resource system? It allows a player who prudently uses the resource to have it for a long time. HOwever players who try to tax it too heavily will soon find themselves in a mess. It simulates the idea of depletion without making it too predictable or random(you know the risk). Of course in real games the values would probably be in hundreds(thousands for oil) because 10% depletion rate would soon drain any resource.
I had some more ideas I want to add.
First, why not make workers use this system, too? The current system treats workers as military for upkeep purposes, anyway. A worker would simply be a soldier equiped with tools instead of a weapon. An added effect of this would be workers that could defend themselves if attacked. Old and unused units could put down their swords and pick up a shovel and start building roads or whatever is needed. Also, workers could unequip their tools and grab a weapon to defend the nation in times of need.
Also, about the population cost of military. I think that a unit or soldier trained in the ordinary way would have no population drain. (The ordinary way in my system would be a solider is requested and trained which takes a # of turns. Certain techs, buildings, wonders, or even government type can alter the # of turns it takes.) My reasoning here is that the military that is built regularly is recruited over time which would not have much of a toll on the population. However, if a unit is hurried, you would get a conscript soldier at the cost of 1 population point. You should be able to conscript soldiers much earlier in the game, too.
Finally, more off topic, but still related would be revolutions. This idea has been discussed here plenty of times, and I don't want to start a debate about it here. But I do want to put forth some thoughts related to my unit idea. The idea here is that when a city revolts, a certain # of citizens take up arms against the military, and become conscript soldiers who arm themselves with whatever weapons are available in that city. This would basically be a peasant army. If the city is not taken under control again, it can then train regular units (or vet if city has barracks), and build more weapons if it has the proper resources.
First, why not make workers use this system, too? The current system treats workers as military for upkeep purposes, anyway. A worker would simply be a soldier equiped with tools instead of a weapon. An added effect of this would be workers that could defend themselves if attacked. Old and unused units could put down their swords and pick up a shovel and start building roads or whatever is needed. Also, workers could unequip their tools and grab a weapon to defend the nation in times of need.
Also, about the population cost of military. I think that a unit or soldier trained in the ordinary way would have no population drain. (The ordinary way in my system would be a solider is requested and trained which takes a # of turns. Certain techs, buildings, wonders, or even government type can alter the # of turns it takes.) My reasoning here is that the military that is built regularly is recruited over time which would not have much of a toll on the population. However, if a unit is hurried, you would get a conscript soldier at the cost of 1 population point. You should be able to conscript soldiers much earlier in the game, too.
Finally, more off topic, but still related would be revolutions. This idea has been discussed here plenty of times, and I don't want to start a debate about it here. But I do want to put forth some thoughts related to my unit idea. The idea here is that when a city revolts, a certain # of citizens take up arms against the military, and become conscript soldiers who arm themselves with whatever weapons are available in that city. This would basically be a peasant army. If the city is not taken under control again, it can then train regular units (or vet if city has barracks), and build more weapons if it has the proper resources.
sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
I did think of a way this idea of seperate weapons/manpower coudl be thought of without getting tedious(at least in one manner).
Suppose that your troops have a training level which is the base on which experience is added. I am thinking, Conscript -> Reserve -> Regular -> Trained -> Elite Trained. Now all these men without weapons assigned to them go into a pool of sorts. HOw men are added to the pool depend on various military fundings and so forth. The less training required, the faster you can get the manpower with the facilities you have for training(Barracks most likely). Remember, atlhough they are not fighitng, they still will want pay.
Weapons systems are built by cities as units currently are. These can be bought/sold by other other countries much like workers are.
When it comes time to actually assing troops, in the city window would be a 'Commission Troops' button. YOu would then see avalible units with the training levels next to them. If there are men of the appropriate level avaliable, they can be matched with a free weapons system and that unit forms.
This is just some ideas that do not require you to head to different places but requires an established military infrastructure.
Suppose that your troops have a training level which is the base on which experience is added. I am thinking, Conscript -> Reserve -> Regular -> Trained -> Elite Trained. Now all these men without weapons assigned to them go into a pool of sorts. HOw men are added to the pool depend on various military fundings and so forth. The less training required, the faster you can get the manpower with the facilities you have for training(Barracks most likely). Remember, atlhough they are not fighitng, they still will want pay.
Weapons systems are built by cities as units currently are. These can be bought/sold by other other countries much like workers are.
When it comes time to actually assing troops, in the city window would be a 'Commission Troops' button. YOu would then see avalible units with the training levels next to them. If there are men of the appropriate level avaliable, they can be matched with a free weapons system and that unit forms.
Spoiler EXAMPLE :
This is just some ideas that do not require you to head to different places but requires an established military infrastructure.
searcheagle
Emperor
I'm actually starting to warm up to the idea of a unit creation forum. The chief compliant I had with the unit creation idea would be the amount of micromanagement that would be required to individually create units. However, I feel that I have come up with a good system to get the benefit of unit creation (flexiblity) without the micromanagement.
With the current game, you can really be screwed if you are lacking an important resource. However, a unit creation system can allow good units to be created without an important resource.
Here's how I think an ideal system would work:
1. Unit Creation Workshop- New units could be created. A basic unit would be created.
A. then a vehicle type would be added, example truck, chariot, horsemen, foot, etc.
B. weapons could be added: spears, muskets, rifles, TOW rockets, longbowman, swords, etc
C. Abilities: airdrop, amphibous landings, etc
Sea and air units could have similar programs.
Ocean examples:
A. cargo, combat, submarine, hyrofoil, etc
B. fire bombardments, cannons, missiles, etc.
*Each of the additions would add cost additional shields to produce.
*Technology opens up these options.
2. This would become a "standard" unit and would be added to your production list. Therefore, it does not require micromange of setting all these unit characteristics for every unit but merely once and for all. It can really help civs that are disadvantaged from being running over because of the units they are able to create that do the job of a more advanced unit but with older technology. For example, transporting TOW missiles by horses which can be the equivalent of a tank in some situations without all the armor costs.
With the current game, you can really be screwed if you are lacking an important resource. However, a unit creation system can allow good units to be created without an important resource.
Here's how I think an ideal system would work:
1. Unit Creation Workshop- New units could be created. A basic unit would be created.
A. then a vehicle type would be added, example truck, chariot, horsemen, foot, etc.
B. weapons could be added: spears, muskets, rifles, TOW rockets, longbowman, swords, etc
C. Abilities: airdrop, amphibous landings, etc
Sea and air units could have similar programs.
Ocean examples:
A. cargo, combat, submarine, hyrofoil, etc
B. fire bombardments, cannons, missiles, etc.
*Each of the additions would add cost additional shields to produce.
*Technology opens up these options.
2. This would become a "standard" unit and would be added to your production list. Therefore, it does not require micromange of setting all these unit characteristics for every unit but merely once and for all. It can really help civs that are disadvantaged from being running over because of the units they are able to create that do the job of a more advanced unit but with older technology. For example, transporting TOW missiles by horses which can be the equivalent of a tank in some situations without all the armor costs.
sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
I think an important caveat of unit creation should be that designing new units is not free. In C-Evo you had to research new units when you wanted them. This meant that you had to use resources to keep your military modern, so constant war might slow you down.
This is kinda picky, but TOW missles are used to kill armoured vehicles. A guy with a Javelin or TOW missle on horseback could quickly get to tank, get on the ground, fire, and get back on the horse.
To make an armoured vehicle, take a truck, put tons of shielding on it, attach some guns. They did it with deuce-and-a-halfs in 'Nam.
This is kinda picky, but TOW missles are used to kill armoured vehicles. A guy with a Javelin or TOW missle on horseback could quickly get to tank, get on the ground, fire, and get back on the horse.
To make an armoured vehicle, take a truck, put tons of shielding on it, attach some guns. They did it with deuce-and-a-halfs in 'Nam.
sir_schwick said:
And that is typical of the kind of thinking that leads to unit workshops being unrealistic. Operating in a vacuum, that kind of tactic might even work. But cavalry units are not particualarly hard to spot when moving. So the target won't be surprised to find a TOW unit setting up. Now field artillery pieces such as TOW require a non-trivial amount of set-up time, and to fight effectively against their usual target, they also need the element of surprise - they operate best when ambushing, hence their high defence factor. All of this requires a reasonable amount of tactical initiative, which is lost by having horses in the picture.
In the time it takes for a mounted guy to dismount, setup, and fire, he'll be a pair of smoking boots three times over from the tank's guns.
sir_schwick
Archbishop of Towels
TOW Cavalry would not be practical in open settings or the plains of Mesopotamia, however for geurilla purposes they are very useful units. Taliban fighters in the 80s often took man-sized launchable munitions on horseback. They could shoot Stingers, the old TOW Missles, etc from the mountainous terrain and knock out vehicles. However I do agree that mostly that is a tactical niche that would never be representeed in Civ. I just brought it up because TOW missles are anti-armour, not armour replacements.
