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Unit Tree Image

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Finarvi, Mar 14, 2015.

  1. Finarvi

    Finarvi Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Hey! I want to share with you something that might be useful for our community.

    UNIT TREE v 3.1 (up-to-date with CPP 15-12-2016 beta)
    Spoiler :


    I included all military units (without UUs) available in CPP with all their stats and abilities. The position of unit's icon determines when this units becomes available. Units are divided into paths and if boxes are connected, it means that they can be upgraded (exception: carrier and missile).

    I hope you find it interesting/useful. It may be good for new players to get familiar with new and changed units. And for more experienced players it can be good for finding ways to change/balance units.

    If you have any comments regarding this image or unit balance then please go on and reply in this thread!


    My old conlcussions regarding balance and gameplay:
    Spoiler :

    1. Upgrade tech requirements. [FIXED!]
    Spoiler :
    There are some units that can be unlocked without unlocking their previous versions. I've marked them in tree. I think that it wasn't intended but I have no solution how to fix it right now. I see that one of them was fixed in last patch but I'm not sure which so I marked it too.
    Fix: Move techs or units around tech tree (but be careful with first one cause it can make other problems).


    2. Density. [FIXED!]
    Spoiler :
    Most of units are well-spread along eras but there are 2 exceptions. I think that there should be always at least 1 technology gap between each unit of same type.
    First are melee naval units at the turn of Renaissance and Industrial Era. Maybe these ships are different but there is only little time to use Corvettes.
    Fix: Moving Destroyers and Battleships one period further would be nice, these ships were becoming quickly Obsolete anyway because there are no melee ships in Atomic and Information era.

    Second are anti-air units which come almost at the same time. I didn't use Anti-air Gun in my last game, even once.
    Fix: Mobile SAM could be moved one period further and it would match the upcoming of more advanced aircraft (fighters and heavy bombers).
    Fix2: Mobile SAM could be moved three periods further to advanced balistics. It would be logical and this unit could counter 2nd and even 3rd tier aircraft well. This should be done with increased :c5strength: a little.


    3. Aluminum.
    I think that Aluminum has not enough use. It is available by early modern era but can be used first in middle information era! These resources serve only for trade for long time before can be utilized.
    Fix: What if very advanced buildings (like wind/hydro plants, atomic and solar power stations) would require aluminum? I think that it would be interesting and balanced. Even if you lack aluminum when playing wide then you could build Recycling Centers (maybe RC limit should be extended though).
    Fix 2: Aluminum could be unlocked later but I'm not sure if it is very smart fix.

    4. Promotions.
    Some of units (especially these specialized - siege, air, naval) has loads of promotions from the beginning making it hard to keep track upon them. And there are many icons that looks the same. It gets even worse if you manage to upgrade unit few times - promotions can even hide behind unit icon!
    Fix: Make some promotions stack together. For example siege units could have Siege 1/2/3 promotion which would include:
    Siege 1: +100% vs cities, Must set up before fire, Limited sight
    Siege 2: +100% vs cities, Must set up before fire, Limited sight, Indirect Fire
    Siege 3: +100% vs cities, Limited sight, Indirect Fire
    What is more, promotions gained upon level-up could stack too. There are promotions that increase strenght by 10% with every level-up. Why don't let them stack (only with changed icon for every level?)
    Fix 2: Make promotions icons in 2 rows. It won't help much but at least something.

    5. Bugs. I found some bugs that stands in tech tree (and I think they should be removed, even if some of them are only wrong tooltips):
    - B17: has Siege I promotion which gives +33% :c5rangedstrength: aggainst cities. That's good but every other unit in game has unique promotion that gives percentage bonus to certain situations (what allows this unit to get promotions like "Siege" anyway). That's rather a detail but well :)

    Fixed bugs:
    Spoiler :

    - [...]
    - Submarine and Nuclear Submarine: have "Targeting" promotion which grants them something like +10% combat strength. I think that this is unnecessary as these units already have loads of promotions. It's better to remove it or increase combat strength manually.
    - Marine units have really random :c5moves: range. For example Dromon is ranged and has 4:c5moves: while Caravel is melee and have only 3:c5moves:. It should be reversed (or at least aligned). From my standpoint:
    Fix 1: Make ancient/classical/medieval melee naval units at about 4:c5moves: and ranged at 3:c5moves:. Ranged ships have enough advantage and I don't see why they should be faster. By the way, melee units are usually "explorers" so more :c5moves: should match their role well.
    Fix 2: Make ancient/classical/medieval ships at same speed (3 or 4 :c5moves:). I'd vote for 4:c5moves: because naval units are faster than land as they don't need to rest.
    - Explorer: has "Embarkation on ocean" promotion which doesn't make sense as it is unlocked in the same tech (sorry as it was mine thrown idea but I didn't know at which tech explorer will unlock). And it isn't written in unit's description but it is hidden in that promotion that this units gets +1 sight when embarked. I'd suggest to change "Embarkation on ocean" for "Embarkation with extra sight" to makes things clear.
    - Ski Infantry: Technology tree says that Ski Infantry (65:c5strength:) can be upgraded with 15:c5gold: into Rifleman (50:c5strength:). I wouldn't do that.
    - Lancer: has "+33% vs Mounted" in technology tree description but it hasn't in game if I'm right.
    - Cavalry: Lancer has "Ignores building defence" insted of Cavalry. I assume that every gunpowder unit should have this one so this should be swapped.
    - Gatling Gun: It doesn't have "Ignores Building Unit" promotion. Note that every other Industrial+ unit HAS this promotion.
    - Volley Gun: Same here, it doesn't have "Ignores Building Unit" promo. I'm not sure if it should have it though (but if this promotion is for every gunpowder unit then it would make sense to add it).
    - XCOM squad: doesn't have "Ignores building defence" in it's description. I think that they have enough stuff to ignore every defence.
    - XCOM squad: it has "Skyranger" promotion that is simmilar to Paratrooper promotions but there is no "No movement cost for pillage" included. I think that upgraded units should rather save their abilities so maybe lets add it?
    - Lancer: Cavarly has been fixed but lancer still has Ignores Building Defence promotion. This makes no sense.
    - Mercenaries: can't upgrade to Mechanized Infantry. Other buyout units can upgrade so maybe it's not intended.
    - Marines: simillar problem. They could upgrade to Mechanized infantry because they go obsolete in Information Era.
    - Caravel: it has only 3:c5moves: while it's predecessor and upgrade have 4 :c5moves:. It doesn't make sense that more advanced ships are slower. We talk about almost 3 era difference in time!
    - Galleas: same as above. Only 3:c5moves:.
    - Ironclad: it has only 3 :c5moves: and "Double movement on coast" promotion. I think that this makes no sense. Why can't he just have 5 or 6 :c5moves: (like other units in his upgrade line) without this weird promotion? Not only this is weird but imbalanced: movement bonusses from wonders/englandUA/other sources gives this unit 2 additional :c5moves:, not 1 :c5moves:. It's strange that this industrial unit can be faster than any other unit in game (except planes). Maybe I don't get the idea, why this unit is slower on oceans (I'd understand if it was ancient unit but this...).
    - Destroyer: it haven't been moved to rocketry as it stands in changelog. Or there's something wrong with my version.
    - Battleship: can't be upgraded to Missile Cruiser. They should be on the same upgrade path.
    - Missile Cruiser: doesn't require any SR. I think that the most powerful ranged unit (and such a massive piece of ship) should require oil at least :D
    - Submarine: there is almost do difference in Submarine and Nuclear submarine production/gold costs (50/40 respectively). This is strange as Nuclear submarine has: strength, +1 moves, +25 rangedstrength, +1 range, extra sight and ability to hold 2 missiles. That's hmm quite a lot for 40 :c5gold:. :)
    - Zeros: as replacement of Fighter they're not that strong (+33% vs Fighters bonus). For example B17 (replacement of Bomber) has +5:c5rangedstrength:, Evasion 50% and Siege I what is significant buff. I'd suggest to give Zeros at least +5 :c5rangedstrength:.


     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Great visualization. This will be helpful for getting units squared away on the tech tree!
    G
     
  3. joosegoose25

    joosegoose25 Chieftain

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    This is absolutely fantastic! Nice work. I will come back later and give things a better look over (and provide input/suggestions for units), but for now I just wanted to give a thank you, this is very helpful and well done.
     
  4. Llednar Twem

    Llednar Twem Chieftain

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    Is there a way to zoom in on this image? I can identify the units by picture easily enough, but I can't read any of the text. Also, for promotions, I use whowards "Condensed Promotions" mod, and have found it to effectively remedy the issue.

    http://www.picknmixmods.com/mods/7e9c1bbc-6184-490d-8d6f-c400c7e708bd/mod.html

    Implementing it in the main patch seems like a no-brainer to me, but then I was also quite surprised by the heavily negative response to the file consolidation so I guess leave it optional unless there's enough consensus?
     
  5. joosegoose25

    joosegoose25 Chieftain

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    I know this tree doesn't incorporate UUs but I couldn't help but notice a seriously OP unit while playing...

    Samurai are buffed to 28 combat strength rather than 21. That is a serious advantage. Longswordsmen are still 21 and Musketman are at 25. I was playing through a game and was wondering why Japan was steamrolling the entire continent so early, no AI is ever that effective at combat.
     
  6. Finarvi

    Finarvi Chieftain

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    This image is large enough to read text. Maybe you've got low resolution. You can download this image or right click and open this image on new page.

    And thanks for this mod, I will definitely try it next time I play (although I don't widthdraw my suggestions).
     
  7. vyyt

    vyyt Chieftain

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    Do you mean that there are people who do not like this mini-mod??? I cannot recall any discussion about it in this forum (maybe I just missed it), but I cannot think of anything negative about this mini-mod.
     
  8. qqqbbb

    qqqbbb Chieftain

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    The picture is too low res.
     
  9. Finarvi

    Finarvi Chieftain

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    I haven't got problems with it. Maybe try other browser or just download image / open in new page.
     
  10. Estebanium

    Estebanium Chieftain

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    I am not able to view this image in high resolution, it is just low res..
     
  11. Delekhan

    Delekhan Chieftain

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    I think the Samurai is just about right at 28. The longswordsman that the Samurai replaces goes obsolete very quickly so there's a narrow window to use it. Plus, once you upgrade the Samurai the upgraded unit inherits no special abilities whatsoever. Plus, remember that it's a Unique Unit that requires a strategic resource (Iron).
     
  12. joosegoose25

    joosegoose25 Chieftain

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    I don't mean to sound combative but surely you can't be serious? It has a combat strength upgrade of 33% over what it replaces (and what every other civ will be throwing out to battle). That replacement also uses a strategic resource so I wouldn't really use that as justification. It's nearly halfway between Musketmen and Riflemen in terms of combat strength so it actually has a very wide window for dominance.

    I saw the AI consistently take cities in two turns with them. Since when is any AI ever that effective at combat? Personally, I'm going to cap their strength at no more than the Musketman (25), tops. I may even change them to 24 and allow a cheap or free upgrade to Musketmen.

    What would be pretty cool is if they weren't that much more powerful than Longswords but were relevant longer. For example, make them 23/24 in strength but allow them to "upgrade" for free to a more powerful Samurai (26/27) when you unlock Musketmen, as I don't much like the idea of Samurai being outclassed by Muskets. I may have to look into how feasible that would be for my own games if nothing else.
     
  13. Wodhann

    Wodhann South American Norse God

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    Yeah, a 28 strength samurai is insane.
     
  14. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Samurai is in the same boat as the Legion in my eyes, both are extremely strong for their techlevel and have the ability to build tileimprovements.
    Both have no unique promotions that carry over when upgraded and just rely on their huge CS.

    While I don't feel like either of those units are overpowered I do think that they could be changed to be more fun, replacing some CS with some promotions.

    The Legion is the easiest one to handle, you just lower the CS by a few points and add a rank or two of Cover.

    The Samurai is way harder actually, because most unique units around it are also extremely strong, the Impi, the Janissary, the Minuteman and the Berserker are all really good at what they do, and all have powerful abilities that do carry over when upgraded.
    One could lower the CS a bit and add a bonus while attacking, but that would kinda overlap with the Janissary. Defensive promotions doesn't really make much sense, neither does siegepromotions.

    Straight up lowering the CS number wouldn't make sense either, this is Japans one era of power, not having their UU pretty much blow the competition away leaves the entire civ feeling weak. And with how the techtree is built up their competition is pretty much always going to be muskets, not longswords.

    In the end I'm going to go with lower the CS by 5 and adding two ranks of Shock, this would leave the unit at somewhat lower power than a musket, but with better training, which kinda fits.
    Other ideas would be lowering the CS by slightly less and adding one rank of shock and that promotion that makes you earn promotions faster (the one that keshiks used to have)
     
  15. Finarvi

    Finarvi Chieftain

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    Maybe lets lower Samurai's :c5strength: by 4/5 and give them some special abillity, for example:
    - if it is possible then maybe abillity to ignore enemy flanking bonus - something that increase strength for every adjacent enemy
    - bonus vs enemies with full hp
    - double strike
    This way Samurai's will be more interesting and as strong as Musketmen (maybe even quite better) but not so OP. And they could upgrade to Muskets for extra strength (keeping their upgrades) or straight to Riflemen.
     
  16. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Double strike or blitz is way too powerful of a ability to start with imho, it requires a ton of promotions to get.
    Bonus vs enemies with full hp is a weird mechanic that promotes bad play imho. Same goes with getting a bonus for being surrounded. These just counters the normal optimal play which could be interesting, but in realitiy it will just feel weird.


    Again I think you're overestimating the power of the current samurai, think of it as a replacement musket with a few drawbacks and some extra CS, it is not that powerful.
     
  17. Finarvi

    Finarvi Chieftain

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    I think that blitz isn't so powerful on unit with 2:c5moves: and with reduced :c5strength: it is interesting. Unit with more :c5strength: is actually better in combat against units with same or higher strength. Blitz is only devastative in finishing and chasing weak units.
     
  18. Wodhann

    Wodhann South American Norse God

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    I really don't understand why samurais need to be so powerful, and I also don't understand the whole "samurais need to be stronger than the musketman" thing. I don't even understand why it needs to be on the same footing as the Musketmen. Musketmen are an unit from the following era, it only makes sense for them to be stronger. And the whole "oh but the window is so tiny" logic applies to virtually any unit.

    If the problem is that it requires Iron, then the issue is how the game deals with that strategic resource in general, and how specific the "needs iron" line of units is. The problem is not with how longswordsmen or samurai are balanced. It is a concept to be looked at by itself.
     
  19. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    The designidea behind the samurai is that they are basically musket-replacements unlocking earlier and requiring iron. They compare to the other musket replacements, but their power doesn't carry over when upgraded (this is a major reason for the "oh nut the window is so tiny", most UUs carry some kind of power over when upgraded)

    Again I have no problem with changing the samurai, replacing some upfront combat strength with promotions, but a straight up nerf to them would be silly because in my opinion they are nowhere near the most powerful unique units.
     
  20. joosegoose25

    joosegoose25 Chieftain

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    This largely sums up how I feel. The strategic resource logic is a non-starter for me since it doesn't apply to the Samurai any more than it does the Longswordsman. If the Samurai is going to be a Musketman upgrade, it needs to:

    A) unlock with Musketmen and possess a higher CS or unique promotions

    B) unlock a tech earlier than Muskets and be only a little stronger, if at all

    Right now it unlocks at the dawn of the Medieval era with Longswordsman, when everybody else has Composite Bowmen, Longswords/Pikemen, or, more likely, plenty of Swordsmen and Spearmen still. Having a more powerful Musketman at that point is unstoppable. It needs to be treated as a Longswordsman UU or come later with the Musketman.

    If they stay where they are on the tech tree I can't help but argue for a straight up nerf, they are just too powerful. I would rather see something more creative than that done (plenty of good ideas in this thread), but I think something needs to change. I suggest playing a game, entering the Medieval Era through Steel, and waging war on your neighbors before suggesting no nerf is needed :)
     

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