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[Wodhann]

Yeah they need a strong nerf.

But, as a compromise, how about make Samurai level up quicker? So he will catch up to the Musketman with promotions.

 

[joosegoose25]

Yeah they need a strong nerf.

But, as a compromise, how about make Samurai level up quicker? So he will catch up to the Musketman with promotions.

I think this would be my favorite way to change them. Make them only slightly stronger than Longswords (23 maybe?) and give them the Keshik promotion. Seems appropriate for them.

 

[Funak]

If they stay where they are on the tech tree I can't help but argue for a straight up nerf, they are just too powerful. I would rather see something more creative than that done (plenty of good ideas in this thread), but I think something needs to change. I suggest playing a game, entering the Medieval Era through Steel, and waging war on your neighbors before suggesting no nerf is needed

To be perfectly honest, there are a lot of unique units that completely blows your neighbors away if you beeline for them.
Slingers, Atlatlist, Bowman, Impi, Berserker, Mohawk. To just name a few.

Comparing the Samurai to the Impi is probably the most fair way of doing this, both civs have barack building replacements, warfocused UA and UUs unlocking about the same time. And unless that drasticly changed since last time I checked (Which honestly was some time ago, I don't find either of the civs very interesting) Impis are way stronger than Samurai even without counting how the zulu UB is more useful than the Dojo.

 

[Wodhann]

Suggestion:

When you research Gunpowder, every samurai unit receives a permanent, flat strength bonus.

So they start out with 22 strength, and after gunpowder they are buffed to 26. (I suggest keeping the numbers relatively low since having an unit that doesn't need any promotion to become better is already by itself very good - not to mention Japan's UA exists)

To make it fair you would need to bring "old" samurai into your borders for them to get the buff, like the embarkation promotion.

 

[Delekhan]

I just finished playing 2 games with Japan. I can tell you right now that you are overestimating the power of the Samurai. It does not dominate at all unless used intelligently, and the window of opportunity for their usage is limited indeed.

Beelining Steel means you miss out on some other techs that in my opinion are quite useful and offer fantastic wonders.

I think Samurai are fine as is. I've used them myself quite a bit, and also faced off against them. They're not the least bit overpowered.

If you think Samurai are overpowered, then try pitting them against mass Impi or Minutemen in the right terrain. They won't last long.

And once you upgrade them to Riflemen, 100% of their power disappears forever, which isn't the case with most unique units. Samurai offer a Japan player a nice - though brief - window to mass-build and get them to the front line in order to score a few victories, assuming you rush Steel. This comes at the opportunity cost of pursuing more valuable economic techs and putting other construction projects on hold while you spam Samurai.

And all this assumes you have enough Iron available to build more than a couple of them. Impi and Minutemen, on the other hand, don't require any resources, and come with useful techs that also offer economic benefits.

 

[Wodhann]

If you think Samurai are overpowered, then try pitting them against mass Impi or Minutemen in the right terrain. They won't last long.

... So, I have to pit them against a mass of next-era, unique units, in the right terrain, to be able to beat them?

That's the best argument as to why 28 is a ridiculous number.

 

[Delekhan]

... So, I have to pit them against a mass of next-era, unique units, in the right terrain, to be able to beat them?

That's the best argument as to why 28 is a ridiculous number.

I suggest playing a game as Japan and seeing for yourself why what I said makes total sense.

Gunpowder is useful for everyone. Its prerequisites are also so useful you don't "need" to beeline it.

Impi and Minutemen require no strategic resouces and are CHEAP, meaning you can make a gazillion of them.

Also, Minutemen give their upgraded units their unique abilities forever. Impi are just crazy strong when attacking, and even better when in a hill/forest since they can take hits long enough to put their super-boosted attack to work.

Also, remember that you can upgrade PIKEMEN to Minutemen and Impi. You can pre-build a huge army of Pikemen, which are cheap and require no resources, and then upgrade them instantly to a unique unit that you can then use to rampage across the continent for quite a long time.

Samurai, on the other hand, upgrade from Swordsmen, which are limited. The upgrade is expensive and ties up Iron, which denies you access to Frigates if you're using them for Samurai. Also, once you upgrade your Samurai, you get zero "legacy" unique abilities for your upgraded units.

And on top of that they require a tech that makes you sacrifice other really useful techs in order to attain early.

In other words, the Samurai's CS reflects the sacrifices required to obtain them in any useful amount, in a reasonably early time period.

 

[Llednar Twem]

... So, I have to pit them against a mass of next-era, unique units, in the right terrain, to be able to beat them?

That's the best argument as to why 28 is a ridiculous number.

You need to stop thinking of samurai as longswordsmen. They upgrade at rifles for a reason. The samurai is a musketman that's available a few techs earlier. It has no special promotions because the early availability IS its special effect. The slight CS boost over a standard musketman is due to samurai using iron, which muskets do not. Units that use strategic resources are always a bit stronger than their vanilla counterparts in this mod.

 

[joosegoose25]

You need to stop thinking of samurai as longswordsmen. They upgrade at rifles for a reason. The samurai is a musketman that's available a few techs earlier. It has no special promotions because the early availability IS its special effect. The slight CS boost over a standard musketman is due to samurai using iron, which muskets do not. Units that use strategic resources are always a bit stronger than their vanilla counterparts in this mod.

They are available at the exact same tech as Longswordsmen. If we're going to consider them a replacement for Muskets, they need to come when Muskets do or a tech earlier at most.

This is extreme hyperbole, but if we made a 200 strength unit available in the Renaissance, would we consider it a GDR replacement? I know the tech difference is what makes this extreme, but the Longswordsman/Samurai comes an entire era before the Musketman.

 

[Llednar Twem]

Now you're just being silly. The musketman comes two columns after the samurai. Taking the first example to come to mind, that's exactly the same as the gap between the quinquereme and the trireme.

 

[Funak]

How about placing them at 24 or 23 CS, with shock 1 and the faster promotions promotion?

Alternatively 26 or 25 CS with just the faster promotions promotion?


As mentioned earlier, I am quite aware that they are stronger than the average UU, but I don't think they are overpowered or even the strongest UU. Keep in mind that Japan doesn't really have much going for them other than this period in time however. Their UA is good, sure, but it is kinda onedimensional and is not enough to win a game by itself.


Their UB I still find kinda weird, could someone explain to me what it does? It gives culture from iron and horses, and that's it?

 

[Wodhann]

Did everybody ignore my suggestion?

Suggestion:

When you research Gunpowder, every samurai unit receives a permanent, flat strength bonus.

So they start out with 22 strength, and after gunpowder they are buffed to 26. (I suggest keeping the numbers relatively low since having an unit that doesn't need any promotion to become better is already by itself very good - not to mention Japan's UA exists)

To make it fair you would need to bring "old" samurai into your borders for them to get the buff, like the embarkation promotion.

To me it's much better and more interesting than just giving them a straight-up, ridiculous bonus.

 

[Llednar Twem]

...The only unique ability that unit would have would be skipping the gold cost to upgrade a standard longswordsman to a standard musketman. That's hardly worth being the defining feature of a UU. Heck, it would be worse than that because your standard musketman would be using iron. Forcing the Japanese player to get gunpowder for the CS bonus defeats the entire point. Being an early musketman is the samurai's entire unique ability.

 

[Funak]

Did everybody ignore my suggestion?

To me it's much better and more interesting than just giving them a straight-up, ridiculous bonus.

I read it, I didn't like it. But I ignored it rather than bashing on it because I was feeling generous


On a more serious note I don't find that ability very interesting, I don't see why gunpowder would make them more powerful either, I mean samurai weren't really famous for their great musket use. (This would be a way better fit for something like the Janissary or Cossack, units that actually lasted for a great period by adapting newer weapons). And even if you ginore the reasoning behind it I just don't find the general idea appealing and I don't think it is anywhere near powerful enough to carry Japan to a conquest victory.

 

[Wodhann]

First of all, I really dislike the "iron" argument because strategic resources in general is something I think we should look at separately. It's something really badly designed in vanilla Civ.

Second, the whole idea is that you basically have a better longswordsman and a better musketman. It's like two unique units for one. And don't the samurai have another unique ability as well?

By the way, the numbers I chose could be tweaked.

 

[Llednar Twem]

Don't the samurai have another unique ability as well?

They can make fishing boats. I have never once seen that be relevant. By that point I've already made all my fishing boats, and anyone I might take cities from has done the same. I really don't know why the ability even exits. The legion's road-building, by comparison, is very useful for linking up newly captured cities.

Edit: I should probably go to bed. It's 1:30 AM here and I think being tired is making me more aggressive than I want to be. Getting some sleep will also let me come back to this with a fresh outlook, which is always good.

 

[Wodhann]

Anyway, my suggestion aside.

You said the point of the samurai is to be an early musketman. Fine.

But musketman is a renaissance unit of 24 strength.

This samurai is a medieval unit of 28 strength.

Do you not see my point here? Even if it's an "early musketman", its power is higher than the musketman's than the musketman's power is higher than the longswordsman. It's overkill. It's not an early musketman, it's an early "better musketman". That's what I find so ridiculous about it.

PS: Just looked at the wiki, and in vanilla civ, the Musketeer - a renaissance, unique unit - has 28 strength, and no other abilities. You're literally making a Musketeer in the medieval era.

 

[joosegoose25]

Now you're just being silly. The musketman comes two columns after the samurai. Taking the first example to come to mind, that's exactly the same as the gap between the quinquereme and the trireme.

Yes, two columns. That's an entire era, don't see how that's being silly.

How about placing them at 24 or 23 CS, with shock 1 and the faster promotions promotion?

Alternatively 26 or 25 CS with just the faster promotions promotion?

I think 23 CS with shock and the Keshik promotion would be solid.

Forcing the Japanese player to get gunpowder for the CS bonus defeats the entire point. Being an early musketman is the samurai's entire unique ability.

The ability is not just being a Musketman an era early, but a more powerful Musketman at that. If the Samurai had the strength of a Musketman but unlocked at Steel we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, as that doesn't sound too extreme.

 

[Funak]

The ability is not just being a Musketman an era early, but a more powerful Musketman at that. If the Samurai had the strength of a Musketman but unlocked at Steel we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, as that doesn't sound too extreme.

The whole problem boils down to it being extremely hard to balance a uniqueunit which only uniqueness is extra combatstrength, as extra combatstrength is extremely powerful but doesn't carry over when upgraded leaving you with a small window to use it.
That combined with Japans complete military focus aswell as pretty bad other uniques. Yes, a I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that a 28 CS longswordsman is pretty powerful, it is way better than the maori warrior for example. But that unit is pretty much everything that Japan have going for them, and with that put into context even with the 28 strength Samurai Japan is still worse than the zulu. Which is why I'm arguing against a simple nerf.

Rebalancing it or fixing the rest of Japan are the only real solutions. If we won't do that, we're better off leaving it as it is.

PS: Just looked at the wiki, and in vanilla civ, the Musketeer - a renaissance, unique unit - has 28 strength, and no other abilities. You're literally making a Musketeer in the medieval era.

It is actually still exactly like that. so while we're at the subject, the Musketeer probably need some retuning aswell.
Not because it is terrible, France have other bonuses covering form them. But just plain extra CS is boring.

 

[Delekhan]

France has other amazing bonuses and its unique improvement, which kicks ass.

Japan has the dojo, which stinks, and 1 culture on fishing boats.

And the Bushido combat bonus for injured units is so weak it's not even worth considering. I think it comes out to +12% for a unit with 5 HP left.

Without Samurai as they are, Japan becomes a bottom-tier civ. And no one else has brought up the fact that since Samurai upgrade to Fusiliers, they tie up all your Iron until the Industrial era, which means no Frigates, or very few Frigates. That's a significant cost.

Everyone else frees up their Iron when they upgrade to Arquebusiers/Musketmen (whatever they're called), allowing them to build a lot of Frigates, or sell their excess Iron for a major profit. That needs to be factored in as part of the Samurai's cost.