Units and Techs at which they become obsolete

[FeiLing]

Hey,

This always bugged me, as not all units become obsolete with the next unit in the techtree. And the only way to really find out about it is to use the ingame civilopedia thingy, which isn't exactly comfortable.

For e.g. a Greek Companion Cavalry upgrades into a Knight. However it does not become obsolete with Chivalry, but with Metallurgy (which enables you to actually build Lancers). Also some units upgrade into other units, but never become obsolete; like Bombers --> Stealth Bombers. Or for e.g. if you don't know it, you might think that Electronics/Mech Infantry might replace Infantry/Foreign Legions, but it actually doesn't.

For that reason I want to compile a list for this and request it to be added to the following page on cfc:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ5/units

That's a very nice and useful page and I believe an additional column with "goes/becomes obsolete with: (technology)" will further improve it.

And while we're at it I also want to request that this unit page is directly added to the quick access links on the top of the page (you know where it says general, civ5, civ4, civ3, 2, 1, Col, etc). As you might have noticed for Civ5 there are way less direct links than for the former parts of Civ. These pages still exist, but are not directly linked. For e.g, Civ4 and 3 have a direct link to their "units page". DO WANT that for Civ5 too^^

Hmm - actually it might also become slightly nicer if there were picture for the resources as well, rather than it just saying "1 iron/horse/etc".

----------------------------------
Anyway, so here's the list (units that don't appear here do not become obsolete):

Warrior/Jaguar/Maori Warrior --> Metal Casting
(that's an important one as you want to build as many Jaguar/Maori Warrior as possible and MC obsoletes them without actually introducing a new unit... feels unintuitive and is therefore good to know).

Scout --> Scientific Theory
(that's pretty random imho; I actually love scouts late game alone for the Honor SP garrison happiness bonus^^)

Archer/Bowman/Slinger --> Machinery

Trireme --> Navigation

Chariot Archer/War Chariot/War Elephant --> Chivalry

Spearman/Hoplite/Immortal --> Civil Service

Horsemen/Companion Cavalry --> Metallurgy

Catapult/Ballista --> Physics

Swordsman/Mohawk Warrior/Legion --> Gunpowder
(always been unsure if researching Steel was safe or not)

Pikemen/Landsknecht --> Rifling
(kinda weird that it's not Gunpowder... at least they also don't upgrade into Musketmen but Riflemen; also note: A Pike won't upgrade into a Tercio if you are Spain.)

Knight/Camel Archer/Keshik/Naresuan's Elephant/Mandekalu Cavalry/Conquistador --> Military Science

Crossbowman/Chu-Ko-Nu/Longbowman --> Rifling
(again: seems illogical that it is not Gunpowder. Therefor I never knew if Gunpowder was safe to research or not).

Trebuchet/Hwach'a --> Chemistry

Longswordsman/Berserker/Samurai --> Rifling
(luckily not Gunpowder )

Caravel/Turtle Ship --> Combustion

Musketman/Minutemen/Musketeer/Janissary/Tercio --> Rifling

Frigate/Ship of the Line --> Combustion

Cannon --> Dynamite

Lancer/Sipahi --> Combustion
(weird, as they upgrade into Anti-Tank Guns (Replaceable Parts) rather than Tanks (Combustion))

Cavalry/Cossack --> Combustion

Rifleman/Norwegian Ski Infantry --> Replaceable Parts

Ironclad --> Telegraph

PS: While doing this I noticed the Zero (Japanese Fighter) lacks a note (like 'Bonus against Fighters (xx%)').

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well generally things go obsolete when their upgrade is reearched.

The exceptions are
1. Industrial/Modern Units (Bombers/Fighters/Tanks/Infantry/AA Guns/AT Guns/Artillery/Atomic Bombs/Submarines) don't go obsolete.. at all (even though they have a more advanced, upgradable version)
2. Warriors (Metal Casting instead of Iron working makes them obsolete)
3. Swordsmen (Gunpowder instead of Steel)
4. Horsemen (Metallurgy instead of Chivalry)
5. Lancers (Combustion instead of Replaceable Parts)
6. Scout (Scientific Theory even though the Scouts can't get upgraded)

 

[Callonia]

Well generally things go obsolete when their upgrade is reearched.

The exceptions are
1. Industrial/Modern Units (Bombers/Fighters/Tanks/Infantry/AA Guns/AT Guns/Artillery/Atomic Bombs/Submarines) don't go obsolete.. at all (even though they have a more advanced, upgradable version)

Well if they went obsolete then you would have large amount of useless oils lying around doing nothing.

they need a replacement for units of ww2 era to units in modern era using oil.

 

[Pouakai]

Awesome job here! I've put it foward to the guys to include in the Units page!

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well if they went obsolete then you would have large amount of useless oils lying around doing nothing.

they need a replacement for units of ww2 era to units in modern era using oil.

Actually what would be better is something representing the modern economics of oil.
something like
Superhighways: 2 oil, +1 hammer and +1 gold per 2 pop

(and make it so that - resources causes the building to be inactive)

 

[vexing]

added the obsolete tech.
interestingly, sotl and frigate are different. i guess they missed sotl when they moved destroyers to combustion.

 

[FeiLing]

very nice, thanks!

PS: missed the sotl thing -.-

 

[LetMyPeopleGo]

Thanks for the charts, I blamed Cyrinno for his mods to obsolete Ship of the line without being able to build the Destroyer because I've relied on the user manual to be correct, someone has forgotten to move ship of the obsoleteness to Combustion.

Is there any fix for that? I don't like to manually edit the units xml file because of steam changing it back.

Thanks.

 

[Duke Maynard]

It is perfectly logical and realistic that Pikes and Crossbows do not go obsolete at gunpowder, both in terms of actual history as well as gameplay reasons.

Gunpowder was niche when it first was developed into hand cannons in Europe in the 14th Century. It was a gimmick for quite some time, far more effective psychologically than in terms of actual killing. Small arms only began to have decisive effects on the outcomes of battles in the mid 16th century- and archers were used alongside them for quite sometime afterwards.

In fact, the period of European warfare from around 1400 - 1700 is referred to in military history as the era of Pike and Shot- Muskets were useful, and did most of the killing, but would be utterly annihilated by enemy armies and cavalry without defensive pike formations. Pikes going obsolete at gunpowder would be incredibly silly because Pikes were a critical part of a 300 year long period of coexistence and symbiosis with muskets.

For the first half of the era, archers and crossbows would still be found as well, so it makes perfect sense for them to still be around. For gameplay reasons, muskets come out not terribly long after you've just completed your medieval armies, and having replace your entire multifaceted army of pikes, longswords, and ranged crossbows with a single decent melee jack-of-all-trades would be dull and frustrating.

 

[FeiLing]

Yes. but the Str10 Pikemen could be replaced by something like a Tercio (Spain UU). A stronger/armored version to overcome the gap of Str 10 Pikemen --> Str 25 Rifleman. Pretty sure everyone did that in real history too, not just Spain. Do all the Crossbow guys have a Pike too or why do they have the same melee strength?