blackheart
unenlightened
No one can stand against our mighty hordes of men in loinclothes! Both at once!
Unofficial Poll - Give War A Chance?
- Thread starter RegentMan
- Start date
Ulyaoth
Emperor
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Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
donsig
Low level intermediary
Good arguments on both sides. I was a proponent of the early war against Ghandi and I'm going with India first. I think the clincher for me was actually posted in anonther thread (that I can't recall right now). It gave me a clear vision of of forces moving up the west coast and conquering India then turning right to smash the Dutch.
GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
The Indians first, then the Dutch. But we must have swordsmen inplace before we make the operation. Oh and we should also start the war when there are no Indian units close to our cities since they are not defended by a single spearmen as of now.
Gregski
Mostly Harmless
Can the elected officials give us an overview of the relative strengths of the two nations? Generally, I'd attack the Dutch first as that would box in the Indians and we'd be able to attack them at our leisure, but we need to know how much we have to overstretch to conquer them.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
I say get writing, ally Indians and attack the Dutch from two fronts, look at how close they are squatting our core, they show no respect.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
That is exactly what I would be doing. We should be making India an Ally of ours so that we can use their commerce for our benifit. The nation of our greatest worry is the Dutch. Since they are Argicultural, they we grow quickly and that is what will hurt our progress is the fact that we cannot expand like we want to do. After the greatest thing we should be doing is expanding in the early stages of the game. Take out The Dutch and we have eliminated our greatest rival in expansion.Provolution said:
GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
At least this is an unoffical poll. Now that we know whom the target will be, The head of the Forgein Affairs can poll an offical one and I do expect to see support for the war against the Dutch.
If I can only get a hold of the Lt. Governor.
If I can only get a hold of the Lt. Governor.
RegentMan
Deity
I just wanted to see who everyone was leaning towards. I had hoped to get some discussion brewing; looks like I succeeded. An official poll will be more accurate now.CivGeneral said:
Ashburnham
King
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2004
- Messages
- 827
There's also the matter of honor. The Dutch are encroaching on our territory, taking our resources, and threatening our survival. The Indians are doing none of these, and any attack against them would be an unmitigated act of aggression. I, for one, would much rather participate in a war of civilization survival than a war of greedy conquest.
Don't let the cry "Perfidious Albion" ring true in this Demoworld.
Don't let the cry "Perfidious Albion" ring true in this Demoworld.
MOTH
Emperor
The two main objectives in wars against either will be:
1. the denial of resouces (primarily Iron)
2. the acquisition of luxuries.
India:
1. Iron can be denied by either building an agressive city or by capturing Delhi.
2. Silks can be obtained by capturing their other city.
Dutch:
1. 2 sources of Iron. The first can be nuetralized by capturing the Hague. The second is much deeper and we would need to capture another distant Dutch city.
2. To obtain Spices we would have to capture the Dutch capitol.
As we will start the 1st war with a small army it seems the only real possibility to obtain these objectives would be a quick war on India while we continue to build forsces for a war on the Dutch.
1. the denial of resouces (primarily Iron)
2. the acquisition of luxuries.
India:
1. Iron can be denied by either building an agressive city or by capturing Delhi.
2. Silks can be obtained by capturing their other city.
Dutch:
1. 2 sources of Iron. The first can be nuetralized by capturing the Hague. The second is much deeper and we would need to capture another distant Dutch city.
2. To obtain Spices we would have to capture the Dutch capitol.
As we will start the 1st war with a small army it seems the only real possibility to obtain these objectives would be a quick war on India while we continue to build forsces for a war on the Dutch.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
Our main goal is to be expansive. If we go to war with India first, we are going against that goal. They are in just as bad a situation as we are because they are also being closed in by the Dutch. The Dutch are enclosing on the territory that we should be claiming. There is territory to the north that they could be claiming. We must get rid of threat or we might become the first DG to lose a game. We must go to war with the Dutch first. I believe that we would be waisting a good ally if we go to war with India first.
RegentMan
Deity
Like another has said, we might want to persue an alliance with the Indians against the Dutch.
Nobody
Gangster
whys everyone here so against genocide? in my games i would take out both of these states. its 3000bc morals havent been invented yet
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 5,242
Just a reality check here.
If we fight the Dutch first, we have to take on their weak outlying southern cities first. We will lose units doing this, and some of their cities will be razed at size one, and some will pop rush a spear and then be razed at size 1. During this time their most productive cities will be churning out archers and swords like there is no tomorrow - and in fact there might not be a tomorrow for us.
By going up the West coast we get a starting point for the Dutch war at the gates of either their capital or second city. We can also pause for a few turns to heal up and get reinforcements there. If we take and raze the Dutch capital or second city on the first turn of war then the rest is easy. We will have four or five connected and productive cities. They will have seven or eight low shield unconnected cities - and no fast units BTW.
Taking the Dutch first is a tactical mistake however tempting it might be. The purpose of a plan is to achieve an objective. I have set out elsewhere what that objective could be and in broad terms it mirrors what MOTH says. The northern iron source may be a step too far - ATM I don't know, we'll need to see how it pans out over the next 15 turns. But in 15 turns we should be declaring on Ghandi. 20 tops.
WE don't have the time to muck about with fabricated moral arguments and niceties. A lot of people have a lot of their free time invested in this game. Let's concentrate on not losing first, and we can talk about honour then.
If we fight the Dutch first, we have to take on their weak outlying southern cities first. We will lose units doing this, and some of their cities will be razed at size one, and some will pop rush a spear and then be razed at size 1. During this time their most productive cities will be churning out archers and swords like there is no tomorrow - and in fact there might not be a tomorrow for us.
By going up the West coast we get a starting point for the Dutch war at the gates of either their capital or second city. We can also pause for a few turns to heal up and get reinforcements there. If we take and raze the Dutch capital or second city on the first turn of war then the rest is easy. We will have four or five connected and productive cities. They will have seven or eight low shield unconnected cities - and no fast units BTW.
Taking the Dutch first is a tactical mistake however tempting it might be. The purpose of a plan is to achieve an objective. I have set out elsewhere what that objective could be and in broad terms it mirrors what MOTH says. The northern iron source may be a step too far - ATM I don't know, we'll need to see how it pans out over the next 15 turns. But in 15 turns we should be declaring on Ghandi. 20 tops.
WE don't have the time to muck about with fabricated moral arguments and niceties. A lot of people have a lot of their free time invested in this game. Let's concentrate on not losing first, and we can talk about honour then.
Ashburnham
King
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2004
- Messages
- 827
mad-bax said:
Ah, but honor is an integral part of the game, my friend. We're going to win this game whether we go against the Dutch or not. That's not the point. The point is to act like a government, have a plan like a government, and have the respect for our people that governments have. Clearly, the Dutch are encroaching on our territory. For heaven's sake, they have a city 4 tiles away from our capital!
Now, we can wage a war of aggression. We can conquer India, pat ourselves on the back, and build a few more cities. But, the Dutch will still be there. 4 tiles from our capital. Sooner or later, we're going to have to fight them. War with the Dutch is inevitable. We can attack the Indians, who are just as blocked in as we are, or we can focus on the nation that is already a de facto enemy of the state. The longer we wait, the bigger they'll get; and the more of a threat they will be to Fanatannia.
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