Using culture to increase barbarian activity

[Grand Seeker]

I had an ide how to slow down the speed of populating the world. It seems like many people want to have a longer period of barbarian dominated world, where
the 'civilized' world remains a smaller portion of the world. But the AI and everything has a tendenzy to populate the world quit quickly. It seems people
want more 'waste' land later in the game.

Also that the hunting for animals and gaining XP by killing barbarians last for only a brief period of time.

How about using culture to restrict where you can place your cities? I have two ides:
1st: you (and the AI) can only place cities within your own culture boarders!
2nd: you (and the AI) cannot place cities within the culture boarders of the barbarians.

I might enjoy ide 2 best my self.

Also, if we introduce barbarian culture, maybe we can add nasty units which
cannot go outside barbarian culture boarders? In this way the barbarian could be made nastier without being able to 'kill' the players at random. Ie, if barbarians come looking for you the threat will be less than if you come looking for the barbarians.

 

[thewyrm]

If there was an option to choose either of those in a custom game, I would choose them every time. I hate how the AI spreads like wildfire with no regard at all for city maintenance. I very much prefer a slow start to throwing settelers everywhere in a mad dash to pick up resources.

My solution (if I knew how to code and if it were even possible) would be to place a time restriction on how often you can train a setteler.

 

[xienwolf]

You already cannot build a city within Barbarian cultural borders. But I think you mean for them to actually start gaining culture so that they can control a larger portion of the world, yes?

 

[Grand Seeker]

You already cannot build a city within Barbarian cultural borders. But I think you mean for them to actually start gaining culture so that they can control a larger portion of the world, yes?

I didn't even know that. But yes something similar. Maybe actually the other way around. Let barbarian start with a HUGE cultural border, but never gains any new culture. Let the barbarian start with 3/4 of the world, and either you have to fight them with your heroes, or you have to gradually replace their culture with youre own.

 

[Warts]

That could make things interesting. That way you are still trying to expand your empire and tame the wastes beyond the beginning game.

The AI spreads so quickly that I often thought of trying to limit the speed of the growth somehow since the AI doesn't seem to pay attention to maintenance.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Personally I've always thought that you should be able to build a city within any other civs cultural borders, but that doing so should be an act of war (the way it was in Civ III). Is this modible? (I assume that if it is it requires SDK changes, but I may get around to it eventually)

 

[Sarisin]

I like both your ideas and agree that one of the flaws of the game is the Expansion-mania of the AI. They just don't seem to mind lowering their Research down to 10% and Gold down to ZERO.

Of course, three ways to slow them down are:

1. Select Barbarian World. Sometimes the program will go wild, especially on the larger land maps, by throwing out beaucoup barbarian cities. The AI is not powerful right away and cannot easily take these. They usually will settle cities around the barb cities, however.

2. Select Raging Barbarians. IMO this is the great equalizer to Expansion-mania of the AI. As they usually have only one Warrior for defense, the barbs can easily overrun their cities and put a stop to the quick expansion. Of course, now it is a little tougher as the raging barbs show up later after AI civs have expanded. Still, some inevitably go down as they are so weakly defended.

3. Go out yourself and start taking out those weakly defended cities that have popped up near your borders. No, you cannot get to those far away and you might have to deal with barbs on the way, but the best way to slow this down is by taking an active role if you can. Playing the Grigori is great as a couple of Adventurer/Warriors can really take care of the expansion problem themselves.

Another idea might be to somehow penalize early expansion by increasing the maintenance costs. This would decrease over time somehow.

Or, create 4-5 Orthusses to slow down expansion.

 

[Grand Seeker]

When I think of it, having 3/4 of the world filled with barbarian culture and that you cannot place cities there makes a lot of sence. If there are lots of hostile creatures around you would not settle that place before it is safe for civilians too.

 

[Willgar]

Nice ideas from the OP. Would make a great option.

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

I second the motion.

I maybe thought to settle a second continent thou. An explorer-settlers comes in mind. Available at a later tech, he would be more expensive. [AI could have troubles with it.

OR

A city placed outside cultural borders would start as a colony [same as the Curiotes sprawlings] and had to build a town hall to transform them into a real city.

 

[Cadaveres]

Well, although I love any attempt to make wilderness last longer, I would combine both options with the following:to make some units unable to enter specific tiles (or even to cross rivers!)

This way we could:
- Make Settlers unable to enter several tiles (unless a road is created on them): desert, forest, jungle, hill, tundra, ice, peaks
- Make workers unable to enter these tiles: desert, jungle, tundra (until a certain technology is researched), peaks and ice

- Malakim settlers and workers could start with the ability of entering dessert tiles since the beginning (that would really fit their theme and would give the great advantage of getting to flood plains really earlier than other players.
- Doviello nad Illian settlers and workers could enter tundra and ice since the beginning
- Khazad and Luchuirp settlers and workers could enter hill tiles since the beginning
- Ljosafar and Svartalafar settlers and workers could enter forest tiles since the beginning.

This way, combined with the power of barbarians, we would really slow down expansion (you would need roads to reach almost anywhere with a settler, plus you would need certain technologies even for entering jungles, deserts and tundra with workers, and therefore settlers would be even more delayed).

Also this could lead to interesting mechanics for other units: we could make catapults unable to enter forests, jungles and hills unless a road is there, foot units unable to cross a river without a bridge... this could add a lot of flavour and interesting new strategies. Anyway, just for settlers and workers would be a great civilization-slower...

 

[thewyrm]

That would be awesome Cadaveres! I have always hated how it is so easy to traverse rivers in Civ.

 

[El_Duderino]

shouldnt the illians be able to have their workers and settlers enter tundra and ice as well? also why do the Ljosafar and Svartalafar settlers and workers have the ability to enter hills shouldnt it be forests?

 

[xienwolf]

One problem with allowing forest/hills access is that forest can exist on hills. So Dwarves/Elves Can enter each other's territory easily.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Cadeveres's proposal was proposed (in a better form) quite a while back by Nikis-Knight (originally in a private team thread, but he later copied it in a public thread). This "Hinterland Mechanic" also involved adding several new types of terrain and features (trackless desert, deep jungle, etc), and making more existing features upgrade. For example, most of the forests in map generation would be replaced by new forests, which would upgrade to forests which would be impassible until a certain tech (except for elves) for most units. Some terrains would be not only impassible, but unownable (your cultural borders could not extend there, so you could not work those tiles) until a certain tech (with civ specific exceptions).

It has been implied that it will be implemented (one of the art guys said he was busy getting the new terrain/feature graphics ready), but I'm not sure when. (I'm hoping that both this and the Morale mechanic will make it into .31)

 

[PapaMonkey]

In the meantime, one thing I have done along these lines is start with the following settings which REALLY alters the game play:
- Raging Barbs
- No Settlers
- Barbarian World
And double the number of Civs.

Each civ gets one city and there are lots of barb cities. You want another city - you must take it from someone. Generally even with double the civs there is lots of unowned teritory for barb spawning too. It is a very different play.

 

[wicshade]

usualy when i play i will go into world builder and give the barbarians some free techs, set some barbarian cities(with culuture, building terrain improvments). I've found that me and the AI both are hindered in expansion.

I would like it if barbarian world was expanded to also give barbarains some free tech upgrades, or better yet if possible.

I like all the ideas presented in this thread.

 

[wig]

In the meantime, one thing I have done along these lines is start with the following settings which REALLY alters the game play:
- Raging Barbs
- No Settlers
- Barbarian World
And double the number of Civs.

Each civ gets one city and there are lots of barb cities. You want another city - you must take it from someone. Generally even with double the civs there is lots of unowned teritory for barb spawning too. It is a very different play.

I like the idea of this setup. Do the barbs do a good job of settling islands and generally filling in the map? What sort of problems have you run into?

 

[Grand Seeker]

The problem I see with simply increasing the strength of barbarian is that the
'get randomly killed without any chance of fighting back' feeling will get increased. And thats no fun.

I enjoy much more idees which restrict settlers movement.

I think it would be cool if one could have stronger barbarian in barbarian terretroy, while the barbarians trying to invade "civilized" terretory should be more managable. Then you could have realy fearsome exploration of the world, without introducing 'get whiped for no reason'

 

[MagisterCultuum]

You want to give them the defensive trait? That would give them the Homeland promotion and make them stronger in barbarian territory.

I think I put that among the promotions the barbs have but loose with Orthus's death