USSR Like it or not?

[Sharwood]

I doubt I can imagine it, because lets face it I would be in prison or dead if I were in the USSR,

Aversion to authority: Check.
Aversion to god-worship/state worship: Check.
Aversion to propaganda: Check.
Skepticism: Check.
Family history: Check.
Counter-Revolutionary thoughts: Check.
Find Marx boring: Check.
Ideological Purity? Nil: Check.

I agree with all them, except Marx isn't really boring. And I harbour counterrevolutionary, revolutionary, and anti-revolutionary thoughts, depending on who's revolting and what the benefits are to me.

Hmm.

Australia:

Guaranteed pension: Check.

But it's pretty pathetic, and they're constantly finding ways to whittle it down.

Health care: Check [Granted Australia's system is not focused on preventative care, but arguably we have free health care for most things, I doubt the Soviet Union had quite as advanced a system as we did either].

If you can stand the nine month waiting list to get the axe removed from the back of your skull.

Education: Check [Basically free up to Uni: 0% interest, high minimum wage, government assistance you have to have some serious issues if you can't pursue Uni education here]

Again, they're whittling that away all the time, and the quality of the education system is absolutely pathetic. My ten year old brother had never even heard of Rome until I mentioned it to him. Fairly important historical footnote, that whole 'empire' thing, as well as that whole 'Pope' thing.

Affordable housing: Not exactly check [Applies to rural Australia, high government incentives to purchase/build a house, up to 70k for low-middle income earners with many states having subsidized loan services, willing to trade for right of association, freedom of the press however]

I just recieved a letter informing me that for the second time in six months, they are raising the rent on the craphole I now live in. I once stayed in a caravan for a week or so. I would prefer to pay $185 a week to live in it. That's how bad my current place is. And it's among the cheapest residences in Sydney.

Democratically Run Business: Not check [Prefer my other political rights over some pseudo rights when the government can put a proper gun to my head to get me to work should I disagree with the States appointees]

Hell, in NSW, we don't even have any competently run businesses, let alone democratic ones.

This has been my "I frigging hate the degeneration of my country, particularly the part of it I live in" rant for the day.

 

[Yeekim]

Hell, in NSW, we don't even have any competently run businesses, let alone democratic ones.

I cannot resist to note that seeing you admit how you apparently have some serious problems of running your own life (unless of course you for some reason absolutely love to "live in a craphole") severely undermines your presumed qualifications to pass such judgment...

 

[Sharwood]

I cannot resist to note that seeing you admit how you apparently have some serious problems of running your own life (unless of course you for some reason absolutely love to "live in a craphole") severely undermines your presumed qualifications to pass such judgment...

How is my living in a craphole a problem running my own life? I'm at university, and therefore reliant on what the government provides me, which as I've already said, is very little. There's no work in my area that would not require me to leave university, or take so much time away from my studies that it wouldn't be worth it. Sometimes you have to take a little deprivation to achieve your goals my friend.

 

[Masada]

I agree with all them, except Marx isn't really boring. And I harbour counterrevolutionary, revolutionary, and anti-revolutionary thoughts, depending on who's revolting and what the benefits are to me.

Revolutionary terror never did much for me... or the proletariat.

But it's pretty pathetic, and they're constantly finding ways to whittle it down.

They did the same in the USSR, all those starving babushka's at the end... and even before then, it's all very well to have lots of rubles, it not all very well and good to have nothing to spend them on. The high functioning period of the USSR was mirrored by arguably the best welfare state in the Western non-Communist bloc, here and over the Tasman [of course it was expensive, unwieldy, overly bureaucratic and ultimately nearly caused us both economic ruin, but hey!].

If you can stand the nine month waiting list to get the axe removed from the back of your skull.

Any sufficently large govenrment run/controlled enterprise is going to be that ineffective. Unfortunately you couldn't criticize the Soviet State a great deal, so were going to have to wait on some study [you can bet with "official" data] or some book of horrors. Probably as bad, if not worse than our system, criticism of the health department is universal in just about everywhere I've been. Even Scandinavian's I've heard pissing and moaning about the state of this and that. Don't forget New Zealand and Australia had some of the best hospital systems in the world back in the day, and we still winged and moaned, you can never have enough health care.

Again, they're whittling that away all the time, and the quality of the education system is absolutely pathetic. My ten year old brother had never even heard of Rome until I mentioned it to him. Fairly important historical footnote, that whole 'empire' thing, as well as that whole 'Pope' thing.

The USSR had a fairly jaded version of history. But ours is a [fairly] horrible system [it depends], honestly I would lay it at the caliber of teachers, few teachers under the age of 40 or so are worth anything. University does not a good teacher make,

• especially when it is coupled with what passes as teaching;
• whatever fad is in the vogue [I was not taught grammar or spelling past year 2 because a genius in the education department decided based on some study or another "kids can learn by osmosis!"];
• the general neutering of the curriculum;
• a complete failure by anybody to hold anyone accountable;
• a general slide into silliness, honestly do we need to be taught in English about freaking "media tricks", in general science "global warming!" and be forced to take health;
• political machinations;
• cronyism and self interest by the education union;
• government funding declines [I can assure you that has **** all to do with it past stagnant teaching wages, all this new wizz bang equipment does not teach English or other essentials any better than an engaged teacher, blackboards and chalk;
• allowing disruptive students to continue to disrupt class's [for years in my case, good job school my learning for three years ground to a halt because successive teachers could not remove three people holding everyone else up];
• and about a million other things seldom tied to school funding

I just recieved a letter informing me that for the second time in six months, they are raising the rent on the craphole I now live in. I once stayed in a caravan for a week or so. I would prefer to pay $185 a week to live in it. That's how bad my current place is. And it's among the cheapest residences in Sydney.

I live in Darwin, the most expensive city in Australia for rent, $450 a week gets you a granny flat.

Hell, in NSW, we don't even have any competently run businesses, let alone democratic ones.

This has been my "I frigging hate the degeneration of my country, particularly the part of it I live in" rant for the day.

It's NSW's, somehow successive governments have managed to run it into the ground. Victoria over the border with no mineral boom has still managed to outperform you guys... short answer good job NSW's Labor.

How is my living in a craphole a problem running my own life? I'm at university, and therefore reliant on what the government provides me, which as I've already said, is very little. There's no work in my area that would not require me to leave university, or take so much time away from my studies that it wouldn't be worth it. Sometimes you have to take a little deprivation to achieve your goals my friend.

Play the long game, the short game never has quite the same returns.

 

[Sharwood]

Revolutionary terror never did much for me... or the proletariat.

That's because you weren't Lenin. If I'm ever involved in a revolution, I intend on being in his position. Or better yet, Stalin's so I can take over without doing any of the work.

They did the same in the USSR, all those starving babushka's at the end... and even before then, it's all very well to have lots of rubles, it not all very well and good to have nothing to spend them on. The high functioning period of the USSR was mirrored by arguably the best welfare state in the Western non-Communist bloc, here and over the Tasman [of course it was expensive, unwieldy, overly bureaucratic and ultimately nearly caused us both economic ruin, but hey!].

Not arguing about the USSR my friend, just moaning about us. I'm well-aware Australia was once considered to have the best public health and education system on Earth. How the mighty have fallen.

Any sufficently large govenrment run/controlled enterprise is going to be that ineffective. Unfortunately you couldn't criticize the Soviet State a great deal, so were going to have to wait on some study [you can bet with "official" data] or some book of horrors. Probably as bad, if not worse than our system, criticism of the health department is universal in just about everywhere I've been. Even Scandinavian's I've heard pissing and moaning about the state of this and that. Don't forget New Zealand and Australia had some of the best hospital systems in the world back in the day, and we still winged and moaned, you can never have enough health care.

Think I just mentioned this. There'll always be criticism, but in our case, it is thoroughly deserved right now.

The USSR had a fairly jaded version of history. But ours is a [fairly] horrible system [it depends], honestly I would lay it at the caliber of teachers, few teachers under the age of 40 or so are worth anything. University does not a good teacher make,

You should see some of the arse clowns at my uni studying to be teachers. The only people who'd actually do a good job at it are those, like me, who have no intention of teaching. I guess Oscar Wilde was right.

• especially when it is coupled with what passes as teaching;
• whatever fad is in the vogue [I was not taught grammar or spelling past year 2 because a genius in the education department decided based on some study or another "kids can learn by osmosis!"];

• 
  Not one of my brothers can spell correctly. The current fad is to make them 'sound words out.' Works fine for 'and,' but what about 'antiques.' My step-father was taught that way as a child, and cannot spell at all. He's literate, he can read anything - within reason, obviously he's not a doctor - but can't spell simple sentences. My brothers will end up the same way, unless I teach them myself. And I live three hours away.
  
  

  [*]the general neutering of the curriculum;
  [*]a complete failure by anybody to hold anyone accountable;
  [*]a general slide into silliness, honestly do we need to be taught in English about freaking "media tricks", in general science "global warming!" and be forced to take health;
  [*]political machinations;
  [*]cronyism and self interest by the education union;
  [*]government funding declines [I can assure you that has **** all to do with it past stagnant teaching wages, all this new wizz bang equipment does not teach English or other essentials any better than an engaged teacher, blackboards and chalk;
  [*]allowing disruptive students to continue to disrupt class's [for years in my case, good job school my learning for three years ground to a halt because successive teachers could not remove three people holding everyone else up];
  [*]and about a million other things seldom tied to school funding

I live in Darwin, the most expensive city in Australia for rent, $450 a week gets you a granny flat.

It's about the same here when you get in closer to the city. People are actually renting out bathrooms. I've just begun illegally renting space to backpackers. On the plus side, the English girl coming around soon is attractive, so I'm getting something in addition to the cash, even if it takes me a few days. Out here, in the 'burbs, it's cheaper, but increasing all the time.

It's NSW's, somehow successive governments have managed to run it into the ground. Victoria over the border with no mineral boom has still managed to outperform you guys... short answer good job NSW's Labor.

Unfortunately it's not just Labour. The reason the Liberals can't win an election here is because they have absolutely no issues they can disagree with the current government on. They're both extreme-right, borderline ultra-nationalist economic liberals who couldn't organise a root in a brothel without somehow ending up with a collapsed tunnel. It's like we're Poland, and we're stuck with either Hitler or Stalin. If only morons would vote for the Greens, or even some lesser third party, we'd not only get an improvement, but send a message to every state and federal Labour and Coalition party.

Play the long game, the short game never has quite the same returns.

I'd wink, but he's sleeping. stupid smilie.

 

[Masada]

That's because you weren't Lenin. If I'm ever involved in a revolution, I intend on being in his position. Or better yet, Stalin's so I can take over without doing any of the work.

I intend to ditch the place. Darwin is a military town, I would hate to be people who would rise in general revolt here... they would be dead rather quickly or at least in prison [assuming a civil war esque revolution], it wouldn't be the Whites dash down the Siberian Rail-line, it would a [choose colour] dash down the Darwin-Adelaide rail-link.

Not arguing about the USSR my friend, just moaning about us. I'm well-aware Australia was once considered to have the best public health and education system on Earth. How the mighty have fallen.

It would have made us into a third world country, Imperial Preference and the EEC were the last nail in the coffin of an unviable experiment. It was failing when my Grandfather was a young man in New Zealand just after the war when it was bought out and its fell when Britain in her infinite wisdom screwed us for Europe of all places.

Think I just mentioned this. There'll always be criticism, but in our case, it is thoroughly deserved right now.

It's been dysfunctional for a long time, but its only now that the screw ups of the good ol' days are coming back to haunt us.

We haven't trained enough nurses or doctors to handle demand since after the second world war, it's been sliding down hill since then, and has more or less been in that state because of the inability of successive governments to do anything meaningful despite claims to the contrary. It was in large part governments fault, when the system was privatized it was already collapsing. Not much we can do at this stage to to fix it.

You should see some of the arse clowns at my uni studying to be teachers. The only people who'd actually do a good job at it are those, like me, who have no intention of teaching. I guess Oscar Wilde was right.

Agreed. I won't trust the so called "teachers" I see being trained up. A steady gruel of intellectual laziness, political indoctrination and general uselessness more than ruins the system. Without further ado I welcome any future children I have to the private schooling system.

It's about the same here when you get in closer to the city. People are actually renting out bathrooms. I've just begun illegally renting space to backpackers. On the plus side, the English girl coming around soon is attractive, so I'm getting something in addition to the cash, even if it takes me a few days. Out here, in the 'burbs, it's cheaper, but increasing all the time.

Bathrooms, that's a new one... hmm. I know that yards are being lent out here for tents though

Unfortunately it's not just Labour. The reason the Liberals can't win an election here is because they have absolutely no issues they can disagree with the current government on. They're both extreme-right, borderline ultra-nationalist economic liberals who couldn't organise a root in a brothel without somehow ending up with a collapsed tunnel. It's like we're Poland, and we're stuck with either Hitler or Stalin. If only morons would vote for the Greens, or even some lesser third party, we'd not only get an improvement, but send a message to every state and federal Labour and Coalition party.

Extreme-left of center, and only a few steps away from say Germany or a Danish right of center Government. Were honestly not all that much different from Germany [economically] or Denmark [socially, crappy schools, and reasonable hospitals aside]. The Greens are the party of middle-upper class mediocrity, wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot barge pole, no offense but I still see the majority of Green supporters as closet bigots and paternalists with regards to the "bleck" problem.

The Coalition and Labor do however need a sound drumming... to get out of the me to isms and outright WTH of both.

We seriously need a Masada & Sharwood or Sharwood & Masada thread just to while the world away in our antipodean hell and so as not to abduct/derail other threads

 

[Yeekim]

How is my living in a craphole a problem running my own life? I'm at university, and therefore reliant on what the government provides me, which as I've already said, is very little. There's no work in my area that would not require me to leave university, or take so much time away from my studies that it wouldn't be worth it. Sometimes you have to take a little deprivation to achieve your goals my friend.

Rebuttal accepted.

 

[Cutlass]

Not all monarchs are incompetent. There are many dictators considerably less competent than you're average evil monarch. Mugabe comes to mind right now.

The difference is that while some monarchs are quite good, the monarchy itself virtually guarantees incompetence. No matter how good some may be, it's only a matter of time until you get one that will wreck the whole system.

 

[Mirc]

The difference is that while some monarchs are quite good, the monarchy itself virtually guarantees incompetence. No matter how good some may be, it's only a matter of time until you get one that will wreck the whole system.

That's absolutely true regardless of the system you use though. We haven't yet figured a way to stop that.

 

[amadeus]

In addition, the social benefits were supreme; guaranteed pension,

Chronic consumer goods shortages negated any potential benefit. 70% of TVs manufactured in the Soviet Union did not even meet the USSR's own quality control standards.

health care,

The life expectancy in the U.S. was actually 5+ years more.

education,

The U.S. had twice as many students at the higher level (10.6 million vs. 5 million) in 1989

and affordable housing for everyone,

Many families lived in an apartment of one or two rooms, sharing kitchen facilities with another family and bathrooms with several families. Older apartments tended to not have running water.

and Western workers simply cannot imagine what it's like to work in a democratically run business where the boss by law must hold meetings if the workers call it, and he must answer their grievances or face legal action by the State.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_stock_company

 

[Pannonius]

Communism is the worst thing that happened to Russia. And it was all planned...

 

[Sharwood]

The difference is that while some monarchs are quite good, the monarchy itself virtually guarantees incompetence. No matter how good some may be, it's only a matter of time until you get one that will wreck the whole system.

Mirc was right on this. Every system of government that's ever been attempted has resulted in quite a few incompetent rulers. Democracy basically ensures that incompetent rulers need only pander to the masses to ensure re-election, and that competent rulers have to waste time pandering that could be better spent doing their job. That's why I prefer a monarchy, although it does have it's own problems.

My personal favourite system tried thus far would be a dictator simply choosing his successor, nothing to do with blood. Franco did it, and I think Spain would be pleased with the result. Far more than they were with Franco, I would imagine.

 

[Cutlass]

That's absolutely true regardless of the system you use though. We haven't yet figured a way to stop that.

Mirc was right on this. Every system of government that's ever been attempted has resulted in quite a few incompetent rulers. Democracy basically ensures that incompetent rulers need only pander to the masses to ensure re-election, and that competent rulers have to waste time pandering that could be better spent doing their job. That's why I prefer a monarchy, although it does have it's own problems.

My personal favourite system tried thus far would be a dictator simply choosing his successor, nothing to do with blood. Franco did it, and I think Spain would be pleased with the result. Far more than they were with Franco, I would imagine.

The point being, that a democracy once well established can come back from the occasional incompetent and corrupt leaders and legislatures only a little the worse for wear. Incompetent monarchs all to often end in mass bloodshed. Taken to extremes you get the Russian and French revolutions, and decades of horrors following them.

 

[Sharwood]

The point being, that a democracy once well established can come back from the occasional incompetent and corrupt leaders and legislatures only a little the worse for wear. Incompetent monarchs all to often end in mass bloodshed. Taken to extremes you get the Russian and French revolutions, and decades of horrors following them.

And taken to extremes, democracy gives you the Peloponnesian War, Japanese internment camps, and worst of all, Sarah Palin. Monarchies involve one tyrant. That's far easier to remove than more than 50% of the population. Winston Churchill summed it up best when he said:

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

The average person is an idiot. At least monarchs are - theoretically, although this often didn't happen - trained to make important decisions. And you can always overthrow a monarch. Far more difficult to overthrow an entire people.

 

[Cutlass]

Democracies screw up, but they also correct. We were wrong to inter the Japanese, but we are not currently interring (most) of the Muslims.

 

[Sharwood]

Democracies screw up, but they also correct. We were wrong to inter the Japanese, but we are not currently interring (most) of the Muslims.

Too many of them to inter nowadays. But democracies will always pander to the public, which is why you're not seeing internment nowadays. Too many people are against it. If public opinion were to change, a la The Seige, you'd end up with anyone who looked Arabic locked in cages in stadiums. After all, morons routinely vote for other morons, and do other stuff which adversely affects the nation, so there's no reason they wouldn't do this if it became popular.

 

[Slobadog]

I voted "yes" in the poll but I'm not sure why.



Although I must say that every piece of pre USSR literature i've read is depressing. Plus I hate the cold Russian winters. If I was that depressed and cold as the Russians I'd probably go crazy and form a USSR too. Russian literature during the USSR days isn't any less depressing as far as I can see though.

 

[Sharwood]

Russia's just depressing, period. I believe there's a quote (I'll probably get it slightly wrong), but I can't remember who said it, aside from the fact that he was Russian.

"If regret could be harvested, Russia would be the world's breadbasket."

 

[Dachs]

After all, morons routinely vote for other morons, and do other stuff which adversely affects the nation, so there's no reason they wouldn't do this if it became popular.

You know, if you're smart, you can fiddle with democracy to make the outcome of the vote non-dependent on the choices of the voters, because it's reasonably unlikely that a Condorcet winner will be chosen...

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

I like the Communards more though.
The Soviets are not the real Socialists; theyre hypocrites~ lol
wht I said above makes no sense at all so Dachs dont correct me this time..........