USSR Like it or not?

Do you Like the USSR?


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You know, if you're smart, you can fiddle with democracy to make the outcome of the vote non-dependent on the choices of the voters, because it's reasonably unlikely that a Condorcet winner will be chosen...:p

Please, not another of Arrow's mathematical fantasies! Society cannot be dealt with mathematically, and Arrow just played around with invented variables to claim some spurious "proof" for his "theorems".
 
Please, not another of Arrow's mathematical fantasies! Society cannot be dealt with mathematically, and Arrow just played around with invented variables to claim some spurious "proof" for his "theorems".
The way it was explained seemed reasonable enough to me. How exactly is the reasoning wrong?

EDIT: I suppose Gibbard-Satterthwaite is more applicable in this particular circumstance. But the basic idea is the same, hein?
 
The way it was explained seemed reasonable enough to me. How exactly is the reasoning wrong?

EDIT: I suppose Gibbard-Satterthwaite is more applicable in this particular circumstance. But the basic idea is the same, hein?

It's wrong in calling it a theorem, and in claiming a proof. People's preferences can't be aggregated to produce anything even remotely exact, there are no real "social welfare functions", etc. Society cannot be expressed in the precise language of mathematics, or even logic. Had they presented just a hypothesis and their reasoning, I wouldn't be criticizing it now.

But the worst thing with those so-called theorems is how their authors claim universality. That's why they use the language of mathematics, to pass things that are mutable social trends as hard physical laws. That's why they call their hypothesis theorems. They're not theorems, cannot be theorems, because they're not universal, neither in time not in "space" (everywhere in the world...). All the preconditions assume certain social conditions, characteristic of a certain epoch and place.
 
It's wrong in calling it a theorem, and in claiming a proof. People's preferences can't be aggregated to produce anything even remotely exact, there are no real "social welfare functions", etc.

Which is why a planned economy does not work, as I am sure you realise.
 
Chronic consumer goods shortages negated any potential benefit. 70% of TVs manufactured in the Soviet Union did not even meet the USSR's own quality control standards.

That's a problem with the people, not the system. It's not as if low-quality goods is par for the Socialism course. Was there ever anything of par quality between the US and Russia or the USSR? Different criteria, different areas of importance. Military hardware is an excellent example of that; Americans always prefer to throw money the problem, and have the most high-tech thing possible. Think of the space missions; the US invested massive amounts of money to make a pen that could write in zero-G; what did the Soviets do? Use an effing pencil. Sometimes the most advanced thing is not the best thing; that's something our material-prizing society has lost track of.

The life expectancy in the U.S. was actually 5+ years more.

Yes but in Imperial Russia it was far lower than in the United States at the time. You can't compare the two, they have two completely different histories.

The U.S. had twice as many students at the higher level (10.6 million vs. 5 million) in 1989

That's because in the US you need a college degree to make any sort of decent money to sustain yourself; not a problem in the USSR.

Many families lived in an apartment of one or two rooms, sharing kitchen facilities with another family and bathrooms with several families. Older apartments tended to not have running water.

Electricity is not a prerequisite for social security, you know. Just because many of our luxuries run on it doesn't mean we need it. Besides, there are many places in the US that hardly use power; namely my apartment. Lights, heat, and refrigerator, that's about it. If we could burn candles, I'd use those, if I had a fireplace, I'd use it, and if I had an icebox, I'd use that too. Of course, as you noted, those people were a severe minority.

Again, you can't compare the two; Russia was so far behind the rest of Europe, to say nothing of the United States, technologically and industrially, pretty much since forever.

Anyway, I don't see the problem with what you describe. "Many" American homes and residential buildings are the same way; again, not a prerequisite for survival or success.


Oh please, it's not the same thing by any means.
 
That's a problem with the people, not the system.
Fundamentally, it is the problem of the people running the system and the people that believe the system works.

It's not as if low-quality goods is par for the Socialism course.
It is in the Marxist-Leninist course.

Was there ever anything of par quality between the US and Russia or the USSR?
I know some Soviet military hardware outperformed stuff from the U.S. in test piloting, notably the MiG-29. The other stuff hasn't really been combat tested.

Different criteria, different areas of importance. Military hardware is an excellent example of that; Americans always prefer to throw money the problem, and have the most high-tech thing possible.
Actually, the USSR spent between 25-30% of its GNP on the military during the 1970s and 1980s, compared to around 5-7% for the U.S.

Think of the space missions; the US invested massive amounts of money to make a pen that could write in zero-G; what did the Soviets do? Use an effing pencil.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.

Snopes to the rescue:

"NASA never asked Paul C. Fisher to produce a pen. When the astronauts began to fly, like the Russians, they used pencils, but the leads sometimes broke and became a hazard by floating in the [capsule's] atmosphere where there was no gravity. They could float into an eye or nose or cause a short in an electrical device. In addition, both the lead and the wood of the pencil could burn rapidly in the pure oxygen atmosphere. Paul Fisher realized the astronauts needed a safer and more dependable writing instrument, so in July 1965 he developed the pressurized ball pen, with its ink enclosed in a sealed, pressurized ink cartridge. Fisher sent the first samples to Dr. Robert Gilruth, Director of the Houston Space Center. The pens were all metal except for the ink, which had a flash point above 200C. The sample Space Pens were thoroughly tested by NASA. They passed all the tests and have been used ever since on all manned space flights, American and Russian. All research and development costs were paid by Paul Fisher. No development costs have ever been charged to the government."

Yes but in Imperial Russia it was far lower than in the United States at the time. You can't compare the two, they have two completely different histories.
If socialism was the better system, then why didn't they ever catch up or surpass the U.S.?

That's because in the US you need a college degree to make any sort of decent money to sustain yourself; not a problem in the USSR.
The average high school graduate in the U.S. earns more his Soviet counterpart.

Electricity is not a prerequisite for social security, you know.
So socialism will guarantee me a fulfilling, electricity-free life?

Just because many of our luxuries run on it doesn't mean we need it. Besides, there are many places in the US that hardly use power; namely my apartment. Lights, heat, and refrigerator, that's about it. If we could burn candles, I'd use those, if I had a fireplace, I'd use it, and if I had an icebox, I'd use that too. Of course, as you noted, those people were a severe minority.

Again, you can't compare the two; Russia was so far behind the rest of Europe, to say nothing of the United States, technologically and industrially, pretty much since forever.

Anyway, I don't see the problem with what you describe. "Many" American homes and residential buildings are the same way; again, not a prerequisite for survival or success.
Again, my point is that the Russians never even came close to our standard of living regardless of their circumstances.

Oh please, it's not the same thing by any means.
Sure it is, shareholders are protected participants in the corporation's management.
 
Fundamentally, it is the problem of the people running the system and the people that believe the system works.

I'm not saying it wasn't a problem in the USSR, I'm saying that it's not an inherent problem of Socialism. Yeah, they got stuff wrong, that's because their nation was as much a social experiment as the US is. Thank God they messed up enough for us to learn from it and not do it next time.

It is in the Marxist-Leninist course.

Touche.

I know some Soviet military hardware outperformed stuff from the U.S. in test piloting, notably the MiG-29. The other stuff hasn't really been combat tested.



Actually, the USSR spent between 25-30% of its GNP on the military during the 1970s and 1980s, compared to around 5-7% for the U.S.

Since you have the factbook, what was the Soviet GNP vs. the American GNP for that time period?


Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.

Snopes to the rescue:

"NASA never asked Paul C. Fisher to produce a pen. When the astronauts began to fly, like the Russians, they used pencils, but the leads sometimes broke and became a hazard by floating in the [capsule's] atmosphere where there was no gravity. They could float into an eye or nose or cause a short in an electrical device. In addition, both the lead and the wood of the pencil could burn rapidly in the pure oxygen atmosphere. Paul Fisher realized the astronauts needed a safer and more dependable writing instrument, so in July 1965 he developed the pressurized ball pen, with its ink enclosed in a sealed, pressurized ink cartridge. Fisher sent the first samples to Dr. Robert Gilruth, Director of the Houston Space Center. The pens were all metal except for the ink, which had a flash point above 200C. The sample Space Pens were thoroughly tested by NASA. They passed all the tests and have been used ever since on all manned space flights, American and Russian. All research and development costs were paid by Paul Fisher. No development costs have ever been charged to the government."

Even if it's not true, the mindset remains the same. Russian stuff is built to ease of maintenance and production; you ever see a MiG up close? It's got exposed rivets all over the place.

If socialism was the better system, then why didn't they ever catch up or surpass the U.S.?

I never said it performed better, I said it was morally right, and that it performed well enough.


No one questions Capitalism's capability for fantastic growth, but that's why people like Marx said that socialism should and must come after Capitalism, which it did not in the USSR. Had they had the advantage of having gone through the capitalist phase, and then were compared to a continuing capitalist nation on par, I'm sure it would do better. Remember that Lenin's main theory was that it was possible to go directly to Socialism and skip the capitalist phase by rushing through it, hence the NEP and Five-Year Plans. It is quite clear that he was wrong in that regard.

The average high school graduate in the U.S. earns more his Soviet counterpart.

Of course, Americans have to pay for everything they need. Soviet citizens did not.

So socialism will guarantee me a fulfilling, electricity-free life?

You yourself noted that only "some" of them had no electricity. You ever been to West Virginia? Montana? Utah? It's not as if these things did not exist in the US, either.

Again, my point is that the Russians never even came close to our standard of living regardless of their circumstances.

Define "standard of living." If you mean material posessions, you're right, they didn't, because socialism is not obsessed with such things. And it's not just socialists who preach this, either, you can find this rhetoric in philosophy and religion, secular and ecclesiastic alike.

Sure it is, shareholders are protected participants in the corporation's management.

Sharholder /= employee.
 
Define "standard of living." If you mean material posessions, you're right, they didn't, because socialism is not obsessed with such things.

I'm sorry, but socialism is not a person and can't be obsessed.

If you asked your average Soviet citizen whether he was interested in more material goods, I really hope you don't think he would say "Hell no!". People are people, with similar wants and needs.

It was the ruling elite that claimed that material goods are not such an important thing - while indulging themselves in such goods anyway. The common man looked to the West's materialistic ways with jealousy.
 
Of course, Americans have to pay for everything they need. Soviet citizens did not.

Taxes?

Define "standard of living." If you mean material posessions, you're right, they didn't, because socialism is not obsessed with such things. And it's not just socialists who preach this, either, you can find this rhetoric in philosophy and religion, secular and ecclesiastic alike.

They were all interested in Marx, Nirvana and whatever else got them going... vodka? Maybe they got drunk of imaginary vodka?!

Dogma and reality are quite often rather removed from each other.
 
They were all interested in Marx, Nirvana and whatever else got them going... vodka? Maybe they got drunk of imaginary vodka?!

Dogma and reality are quite often rather removed from each other.

Yeah the notion that communists were not obsessed with materia posessions, like warpus rightly stated, is more of an excuse made up by communist leaders to the fact that they failed to deliver comparable ammounts of material well being as the West.

But we ought to keep in mind that communism was all about producing material well being. It's not called a materialist ideology for nothing! That they failed to properly deliver those "material posessions" is proof of the bankruptcy of their system.
 
The USSR certainly had its flaws, but it was fixing them until the very end, when the capitalist democratic scum ruined everything. The Red Army Choir and the USSR Anthem was the best. Shame the USSR Anthem at least is now gone, it was sung very well. The Russian anthem is just less grand and awesome now. :(
 
Needs more Stalin:

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The USSR certainly had its flaws, but it was fixing them until the very end, when the capitalist democratic scum ruined everything. The Red Army Choir and the USSR Anthem was the best. Shame the USSR Anthem at least is now gone, it was sung very well. The Russian anthem is just less grand and awesome now. :(

Are you kidding around? If your going to be an apologist, at least do it right like Cheezy and RRW.
 
Lets edit it just abit more.

The USSR certainly had its flaws, but it was fixing them until the very end, when it deviated from Marx and ruined everything.

Or did it deviate at the start...

"My system didn't fail, they just deviated from Marx's vision. It was so totally going to succeed, you just need to believe in it! I mean honestly, you just need to read Marx to see that they went wrong, and were going to fail! You read Marx to practice Marx, and if you fail, well your wrong not Marx. Marx cannot be wrong!"
 
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