V36

[Thunderbrd]

1) They are set a build with food which stops the growth of the providing city while they are being built.

But a very small percentage of their production ends up being food and in short it ends up being a way to take a tremendous amount of production and convert it into food.

2) Of course they are one shot how could they not be. They are the food and goods consumed by the place they are used.

Just because the goods they carry are consumed that doesn't mean THEY are. But if we're only modelling the sacrifice from one area into the merchant by the build cost alone and not allowing the merchant to pick up and drop off and exchange then yes, they'd need to be one-shots. However... I'll address more thoughts on this next.

3) If you are going to set up supply lines and movement of goods then I think the trade route mechanic is the way to go but expose it to the player so that they can manipulate it. We can then use it to spread plagues and ideas and such like as well. Most importantly it should not be a (set of) unit(s), although you may use a unit to set up special ones.

Units should very well be on the map to be transporting although they should be programmable how they transfer. This way the missions they are on can be changed and we can allow other units to disrupt the supply line. Criminals can be made to be able to steal from them in transit if not protected properly and military units could foul up a country's trading by simply attacking the supply convoys. These are things that have played a major role in the history of conflict and trying to keep trade all on the non-unit level severely impedes our ability to model this. The trick is to make it not arduous and to keep micromanagement from being necessary. Thus we would allow the standard trade route mechanism we have to remain in place but let the merchant units start taking a larger role in the game.

This would need to integrate with consumable resources (not yet in the C2C but Platyping has a draft mod that could be expanded for C2C needs) and ....(dang lost my train of thought)

This would certainly set us up for making the most of a consumable resource project indeed. I also intend it to be how we can get updated equipment out to units in the field and to allow us to optionally play with units consuming some food and possibly supplies (such as resources.) Units could take from where they are but obviously there would be limits in the wild on supporting a huge army so supply lines would need to be established.

The mission for setting up supply lines with merchant units would allow you to say, take x from city a and take it to unit b, taking whatever unit b has collected back to city a and repeat, wherever unit b happens to be. Or to establish a repeated route, take x from city a and take it to city b at which point exchange it for y and then take y back to city a. Repeat until told not to or dramatically interrupted.

The ability to send protective units along WITH the merchant will be necessary to add into the mix. For that reason, I'm also considering a line of Armed Guards that would be just as mobile as merchants that are for the most part specifically designed to travel with them. Send some dogs along on the convoy and you'll have most threats be visible if there's a little promotional development invested into both the guards and the dogs to do so.

This way you can use your merchants to sell to opponent cities (and when you do you actually reduce the commerce that city is going to produce next until the full payment is made.) And we can create a supply and demand evaluation that establishes the value of resources, equipment, raw production materials, raw food, raw commerce (meaning all sorts of generic 'stuff') and so on so that when a merchant makes a transaction it does so at a rate that can be profitable or not in some cases where you need something so bad its worth the overall trade loss.

Merchants would also be able to develop their own EXP and promotions to enhance their carrying capacities and ability to barter for better results, traveling speeds, perhaps some combat capacity of their own if they want to try to be able to abandon the normal convoy guards etc...

This inventory system plays into nomadic start because units will need to be able to amass yields and other items for that anyhow.

I have thought that the various "mine" buildings should generate an excess of their material every now and then (ie event) either as a units or boost to consumables for that turn.

Interesting idea... Something that can be thrown into the mix.



Anyhow, this is something I've been pondering for a very long time. I feel it should be optional but it would also be something that would be critical to further projects or to get the most out of other projects rather.

 

[Toffer90]

thats horrible, no offense . . .

None taken, at least I have 2.47 MBps down speed; thats livable.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There is already a "blockade" mechanism to counter the trade route mechanism. I really would prefer to not have more unit types in the game.

In Sevo's Faces of God mod (on our to merge list) there is a unit that steals a resource from another nation and gives it to you. Basically the thief builds an improvement in your nation then goes and camps out on a resource in your enemy nation, they loose access to that resource and it "appears" in the improvement until either the unit is moved or killed, or the improvement is destroyed. It is a national unit and can only be built if you choose to have that religious "path".

The equipment promotions need to be sorted out before we can go anywhere on the Nomadic Start and as far as I can tell we have very opposing ideas on the nomadic start anyway.

 

[strategyonly]

None taken, at least I have 2.47 MBps down speed; thats livable.

seriously, ouch, i have cable, and it "starts" at 50M d/l speed / /and 1-5 M upload .

 

[Thunderbrd]

I realize not all will feel that the way I'm going with Nomadic Start will be the way it should've gone but decisions must be made and I do intend to make it all an option. And perhaps other methods will be made available at some point and two or more approaches can then be harmonized into one unified mechanism. But we've got to try some ways to address it before we can judge them in full. One thing I really really don't like about Johnny Smith's Nomad is that you have EITHER a city OR a Unit and the time to take to pick up and move on is a waste of a round. I'm far more in line with AIAndy's method but don't believe it should be properties that are collected - instead raw yield collections should suffice. I get his arguments against that but I believe I can get around the detracting factors.

I like some elements of the unit you mention from Faces of God. Except that it's just another limited unit without cause to be limited aside from game balance.

Blockade doesn't work over land routes.

And again, the whole inventory method would be completely optional despite being the basis of numerous other options.

The only unit type that would need to be 'added' would be mobile guard units and from what I can see the game needs it for a number of other reasons as it is. Scouts used to be used for that and that never did make much sense anyhow.

It's pretty likely that I would suggest we don't use unique art for those units either... they'd just be specialized versions of other mounted and wheeled units and such. The art is the primary reason units are heavy.

We don't need more merchants I don't think... maybe a few to flesh some spots out but I haven't evaluated that fully. But the inventory option would certainly change their definitions and ways they work.

Yes, equipment promos would need to be sorted out first. And equipment requires transportation matters and supply issues to be sorted out first. This is why equipment development has been on hold.

 

[Toffer90]

seriously, ouch, i have cable, and it "starts" at 50M d/l speed / /and 1-5 M upload .

I assume you are talking about bits.
Downloading 1 GB:
-I use 6-7 minutes (livable)
-You use 2-3 minutes. (Nice)

If you are talking about bytes then you have fiber cable which is awesome and far superior to my ADSL.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I realize not all will feel that the way I'm going with Nomadic Start will be the way it should've gone but decisions must be made and I do intend to make it all an option. And perhaps other methods will be made available at some point and two or more approaches can then be harmonized into one unified mechanism. But we've got to try some ways to address it before we can judge them in full. One thing I really really don't like about Johnny Smith's Nomad is that you have EITHER a city OR a Unit and the time to take to pick up and move on is a waste of a round. I'm far more in line with AIAndy's method but don't believe it should be properties that are collected - instead raw yield collections should suffice. I get his arguments against that but I believe I can get around the detracting factors.

The reason it is either a city or unit is mostly because we don't have a screen that is like the city screen but for special units. I think we can do that with a lot of work, that I am not getting any time to do.

I like some elements of the unit you mention from Faces of God. Except that it's just another limited unit without cause to be limited aside from game balance.

It is that way because of the code only. It was not written to handle more than one unit.

Blockade doesn't work over land routes.

But it is an existing mechanism that could be expanded and could be a mission/action on a criminal unit allowing them to destroy or capture stuff and send it home. The criminal unit would have a range of action. They would not spread crime while doing this sort of mission though, to much risk of being caught.

Yes, equipment promos would need to be sorted out first. And equipment requires transportation matters and supply issues to be sorted out first. This is why equipment development has been on hold.

There is already a way to get equipment style promotions onto a unit. You just visit a city which has the building that provides that promotion. Bamboo armour, and poison work that way already. Start with that then add in the more complex mechanism as an option for people who want the complexity.

We can have supply units with missions to add promotions to a number of units. We could have supply depots in cities and maybe defensive improvements like forts which could add the equipment.

If we had consumables that resided in one place rather than as a national resource, as in Platyping's mod, then having those consumables available in a city/fort would have the building/whatever active and providing the equipment until it runs out.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The reason it is either a city or unit is mostly because we don't have a screen that is like the city screen but for special units. I think we can do that with a lot of work, that I am not getting any time to do.

Once you've got something along those lines it could simply further enhance things. However, I don't think it's JUST a problem with screens. Cities have affixed locations in the dll and the interaction with the exe is very tricky with that. Many attempts have been made to enable them to move and most have been met with crashes and failure OR very heavy processing delays (which is even more likely). I've come to the conclusion that the unit must be a proxy city to make it work which means that an inventory system for units will be necessary. Working plots and so on based on some additional screen work could be interesting too but we are at the point where we're having to start trying to be efficient with unit data and this could quickly go too far. I wouldn't be against trying some things to enhance the initial structure I intend to create here and with your screen development assistance I can see how it could really be very cool. But again, as you say, time is a factor for us both so its hard to say if we could easily combine our efforts until I've at least established a basic initial method.

It is that way because of the code only. It was not written to handle more than one unit.

I'll have to further investigate that mechanism. Sounds quite interesting really.

But it is an existing mechanism that could be expanded and could be a mission/action on a criminal unit allowing them to destroy or capture stuff and send it home. The criminal unit would have a range of action. They would not spread crime while doing this sort of mission though, to much risk of being caught.

1) Can't turn off the spreading of crime so easily. Properties are tough to work like that.
2) I would definitely like to try to work out a land blockade capacity. Would be perfect for Ruffians in particular.
3) Would be cool to have in addition to what I'm hoping to implement and I don't see one as being a perfect solution to make the other unnecessary.
4) Blockading is fairly complicated in the code but with some patience I might be able to do this for land use. Land trade routes are trickier than ocean ones for one thing, with rivers and routes in play. Trade in and of itself is kinda a difficult mechanism to work with imo.

So in short, I'll look into land blockading as well with this next version at some point. May well be a very cool new feature.

There is already a way to get equipment style promotions onto a unit. You just visit a city which has the building that provides that promotion. Bamboo armour, and poison work that way already. Start with that then add in the more complex mechanism as an option for people who want the complexity.

Basically that's what we already have done. However, getting the AI and the player to not have to constantly send their field troops home for regular equipment upgrades is an element that's been needing to be addressed before going full bore into equipment promos.

We can have supply units with missions to add promotions to a number of units. We could have supply depots in cities and maybe defensive improvements like forts which could add the equipment.

That's basically exactly what this will entail. Just more transaction based persistent units to perform these deliveries rather than one-shots is the main thing I'm looking to implement.

If we had consumables that resided in one place rather than as a national resource, as in Platyping's mod, then having those consumables available in a city/fort would have the building/whatever active and providing the equipment until it runs out.

Indeed, another use of forts would be to keep equipment and other goods on the plot from vanishing the round after it's dropped. So again, could be very useful in setting up a volumetric resources mechanism. I'm initially thinking that a Resource or Bonus trade would simply give access for a round but it may be that this will make it time to start really considering the whole Volumetric Resource concept in full.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The mechanism is in Python for the Faces of God mod's thief. I'll see if I can isolate it for you or at least describe it in more detail.

Currently we have no promotions in the equipment page of the pedia. This is why I wanted to move the bamboo armor promotion there.

Platyping's consumables mod simply uses special resources ie the consumables which it stores in the capital city. Each turn it adds the number produced throughout the nation and removes them when a unit is built. It also has how many of each consumable a unit needs to be made and subtracts that number when the unit is built. It uses nothing more than what is in the basic XML with some python code. Consumables can't be traded because there is no AI for such a thing existing.

I have started a thread for things we might want to include in the next release and discussions on if we will be attempting to and how far we are going to go/get.

 

[Harrier]

seriously, ouch, i have cable, and it "starts" at 50M d/l speed / /and 1-5 M upload .

I have fiber Cable.

I was about to offer my services. But your speeds are about the same as mine and more importantly - you know what you are doing. I would need hand holding.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The mechanism is in Python for the Faces of God mod's thief. I'll see if I can isolate it for you or at least describe it in more detail.

Currently we have no promotions in the equipment page of the pedia. This is why I wanted to move the bamboo armor promotion there.

Platyping's consumables mod simply uses special resources ie the consumables which it stores in the capital city. Each turn it adds the number produced throughout the nation and removes them when a unit is built. It also has how many of each consumable a unit needs to be made and subtracts that number when the unit is built. It uses nothing more than what is in the basic XML with some python code. Consumables can't be traded because there is no AI for such a thing existing.

I have started a thread for things we might want to include in the next release and discussions on if we will be attempting to and how far we are going to go/get.

The bamboo armor is almost an official equipment. But yeah, we have numerous things to work out to enable true equipments in full. The consumables mod may be useful for guidance of concept.

 

[strategyonly]

I have fiber Cable.

I was about to offer my services. But your speeds are about the same as mine and more importantly - you know what you are doing. I would need hand holding.

yeah but for some reason, mine had never worked at uploading, sorry . .

 

[Arakhor]

thats horrible, no offense . . .

The same could be said of having a resolution of only 1024x768.

 

[Harrier]

yeah but for some reason, mine had never worked at uploading, sorry . .

Well I have never really tried uploading much, except for save files, maps, jpgs, bug files etc.

Nothing to big.

But (at present) I do not have any bandwidth restrictions - which may make a difference.

To download a complete new (not an update) SVN takes me about 20 mins. Not sure about uploads.

Give me something to upload to some place - and lets see what happens.

Remember, I need instructions, on uploading the files.. (not how to upload the files - but where to upload them.)

Send me a PM, if you want to.

Happy to try if it helps the team.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I say work with Harrier on this one SO. Thanks Harrier!

 

[Galadrion]

So...

Any idea yet whether v36 will be savegame compatible? Also, how compatible is v36 likely to be with Sparth's Megamodpack? Or is it too soon to tell yet?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

C2C is save game compatible almost always totally. I think the only thing that will happen is that you will loose any Poison Crafter's Huts you have built and will need to rebuild them.

edit no idea about the mega pack compatibility but it should be.

 

[Sparth]

Megapack should be 100% compatible with v36.
If not - ill fix it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The bamboo armor is almost an official equipment. But yeah, we have numerous things to work out to enable true equipments in full. The consumables mod may be useful for guidance of concept.

Too bad no one has added a plain bronze and iron armor to upgrade from bamboo. 3 type armor shouldn't be that hard I would think. I know there are plans for a Bunch of armor/equipment but we've had bamboo for how many versions now? And no upgrade armor after it? Just sayin'.

And I have dsl that is only 1 MB upload (12 d/l though), so that is why I have not volunteered to upload v 36.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Have we stopped updating the SVN with fixes for v36 so it can be prepared for release or can I put two more minor fixes in? (Wild Boar spawn and Mapinguari unit definition fixes?)