value of Temple of Artemis

[dalamb]

If I understand the Civilopedia entry correctly, Temple of Artemis gives +100% trade route income in the one city that builds it. How valuable is this generally? You'd need a high commerce city with enough production to build the ToA fast, and possibly with enough food to run some merchant specialists. Are there other wonders worth building in the same city? GLH, I guess.

The AI seems to prioritize this one in a lot of games I've played; avoiding an early religion means no early Polytheism for me.

 

[Power_of_Beer]

Seriously, I think it is one of the most useless wonders in Civ4.
I'm not a great player or something but can win on Monarch most of the time, and I NEVER build ToA. The tech required is sub-optimal, +100% trade route yield gives you roughly +3-6 commerce because its 100% of the base value. If I want a GM the Great Lighthouse is rushed (which gives you much more commerce anyway), and there are much cheaper ways to get a priest.
Maybe, MAYBE if I'm industrious and have marble I would build it, but even then there is mostly much better stuff to build.
But hey, maybe one of really good players on these forums can convince me that it is good.

 

[Shafi]

Dont think i've ever built it either, usually from an economy point of view it is the GLH + Colosuss for me.

 

[JammerUno]

It gives 5 GPP/turn, it has great synergy with Bureau and the GHL, it expires late, and you'll need Poly for literature anyway, so the techpath isn't that bad. The only reason I never build it is that the AI gets there very fast on high levels.

 

[dalamb]

Well, I'm still struggling with Noble, so not having time for it at upper levels isn't such an issue. Maybe if I have marble and go for polytheism just late enough NOT to get hinduism, I might try it sometime.

@JammerUno: By mentioning Bureaucracy, did you mean it ought to be built in the capital? Also, it's 2 GM GPP from the wonder and 3 GP GPP from the free priest, so you have to be willing to accept the chance of either.

 

[mc-red]

Maybe if I have marble and go for polytheism just late enough NOT to get hinduism, I might try it sometime.
i

just tech to one turn of poly and switch research. When hindu founded just finish it off.

 

[Soirana]

5GPP [yes mixed] is main reason to build. Mostly it is for denial, as wonder GPP make reasonable amount of GP generation for AI. In short i would aim for it only as for wonderspam plan.

Form negative side you loose good place for you GM missions...

 

[vicawoo]

It's like a mini great library with worse specialists, much more of an investment at the stage in the game, with a pretty small commerce bonus. In theory a philosophical with marble could do something nice with it (super wall street city?). The worst part is the best place to send your 40% great merchant is the AI temple of artemis.

 

[Silu]

It can be okay if shooting for culture and there's Marble in the first 2 cities. Otherwise, not so much.

 

[dalamb]

Mostly it is for denial... aim for it only as for wonderspam plan.

At my level I've sometimes built the SoZ or Stonehenge partly (or even mostly) to deny it to the AI, so with an IND leader maybe this makes sense.

 

[Jet]

@JammerUno: By mentioning Bureaucracy, did you mean it ought to be built in the capital?

That's the only interpretation that makes sense.

You said you should put it in a high commerce city, but no, you don't need that. What helps is
* high population for better base trade route income -- preferably it will be your highest pop city, so that that city gets the best trade routes available to your civ, such as to foreign capitals.
* Bureau bonus
* GLH/Cothon bonus
* science and wealth multiplier buildings. Those are also helpful to high commerce cities. That is the only sense in which it's good to put the TOA in a high commerce city.

 

[DaveMcW]

ToA gives +100% to rival Great Merchant missions.

Another reason to let the AI build it.

 

[r_rolo1]

Not exactly....

ToA gives +100% to trade routes and the trade routes value is used for the GM mission, true. But the peculiar nature of the bonus in civ IV makes that the ToA bonus to the GM missions being at top 100%, most surely less ( you only need the prolonged peace modifier to kick in and it is less that 100% )

And that is also a good reason for the trade route bonus being inconsequential most of the times... that +100% applies to the base value of the trade route and that value, in most games, never passes 3 g ... so, at best we are talking of a 2-3 g bonus per trade route and in most of the game will be 1 g.

 

[madscientist]

The ToA is the second best GP producing wonder (after the Great Library) due to +2 GM points and the free priest (surprisingly not discussed here). The free priest gives you 1 free hammer, 1 free gols, not much but pretty decent early on. The trade route yield works well if you are at peace and get harbors fast, plus the Great Lighthouse.

The two biggest problems is the the AI targets it very fast and the Great Person Points are split making the GP unpredictable.

 

[NihilZero]

Considering how hard it is to get the wonders you really want, I can't imagine myself ever wasting time and hammers on the ToA. It would make a nice UB p), but as a world wonder it's pretty bad.

 

[Jet]

The trade route yield works well ~~if~~ you get harbors fast

I used to think so, but I no longer do.

The trade route yield (by which I think you mean the +100% from TOA) workes equally well no matter what other trade route bonuses you have, since the bonuses add to each other. With a harbor and the TOA, total = base * 250%.

I think cities with harbors just appear to get better trade routes because the +50% causes better trade routes to get routed to the harbor city instead of another city in your civ. So you could actually be right if you have other, higher pop cities and the extra +50% from the Harbor causes the bestest of the best trade routes to get reallocated from those cities to your TOA city. But otherwise, the TOA will already have had the effect of attracting better trade routes. (I'm not even completely sure that trade route bonuses cause better trade routes to get allocated to cities that have them, but it is my impression from observing it.)

And just to be clear, this is from a fixed pool of trade routes available to your civ. They're routes that another of your cities would get, if the city in question didn't get them.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

Yea the fact that the + 100% only works on the base commerce value seems rather boring
I was hoping to convince myself into thinking that it would be a significant trade boost but it seems that that is not the case.
However as was mentioned if you also had the GLH you would be making decent coin, if you were also Carthage (I think?) you'd get yet another trade route and I think you'd be in business!

 

[Silu]

However as was mentioned if you also had the GLH you would be making decent coin, if you were also Carthage (I think?) you'd get yet another trade route and I think you'd be in business!

The catch here is that GLH and ToA are the 2 hardest early-game wonders to get (to my experience), not to mention gunning for both of them.

 

[TheLazyHase]

if you were also Carthage (I think?) you'd get yet another trade route and I think you'd be in business!

If you're carthage, and have a coastal city, you may gain something equal to the Colossus in one city. Colossus apply to all coastal city and is easier to grab. And if you want to rush, you simply can't have the ToA, it will take you too long to create a decent army. Last thing, Hannibal is not industrious, nor does he have anything that help him to build this wonder. Do you understand why I don't bother with ToA even with Carthage ?

 

[TheWilltoAct]

A good point and well made.

The only caveat that I could see is that maybe you are in a situation where inland sites are more preferable so ToA is maybe in your only coastal town? Maybe?

Oops - I guess in the general case the Bureaucracy bonus should give it some teeth (or at least a tooth ). I rather ignored that.
Tho I certainly agree that the + 5 GPP is likely more motivating.