Vanilla vs. BTS

[patkingpin]

Hi everyone. I have lurked here since I bought Civ IV a couple of months ago and now with Complete out, I wonder if I should upgrade to BTS.

That being said, let me explain. I am someone who likes a "complex but simple" game. I think Civ IV Vanilla has just the right amount of each in it.

As I read the threads it here, I am noticing it is almost assumed everyone has BTS so a lot of the advice is geared towards that and not applicable to Vanilla. I am worried that BTS will be too much extra thrown into it and I won't enjoy it as much as Vanilla.
I would love everyone's feedback on that.

As a side note, I bought the Game of the Year Edition, does anyone know what is different with that or did I just buy a prettier box?

Thanks,
Patkingpin

 

[Naphthous]

Warlords/Beyond the Sword brings many improvements, including innovations but also "fixing" some of the flaws of Vanilla (I'm looking at you, Civil Service Slingshot). I definitely recommend it.

With the latest patch, you can turn off vassal states (from Warlords) and espionage (BTS), both of which I usually play without because I find them not fun. The new civs and leaders, great generals, wonders, etc. are a lot of fun, so I'd recommend upgrading.

 

[fantsu]

BTS is the only version of civ4 worth playing, PLAY IT!

 

[patkingpin]

With the latest patch, you can turn off vassal states (from Warlords) and espionage (BTS), both of which I usually play without because I find them not fun. The new civs and leaders, great generals, wonders, etc. are a lot of fun, so I'd recommend upgrading.

This is what I most worry about when I read threads is vassals and espionage. I would love to get the upgrades without worrying about them. So I can turn them off in options if I upgrade?

 

[mechaerik]

Vassals can be turned off, but espionage is a problem, because the espionage is converted to culture (making CVs easy), and its a little half-assed, because there are some things (free Great Spy with Communism remains, for example).


Overall, BtS is vastly superior.

 

[phungus420]

Overall, BtS is vastly superior.

Also all the supported mods are for BtS (And there are some great mods available). Including unaltered ones like BUG which improve the interface, or bug fixes and AI updates like BetterAI that vastly improves the AI's logic.

 

[Willem]

You're only playing half a game if you don't have BtS. Not to mention that most worth while mods will only work if you have it. Once you get it, you'll be able to use the BUG mod, which is a must have as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't change the gameplay at all, it just adds much more functionality to your interface.

 

[Willem]

This is what I most worry about when I read threads is vassals and espionage. I would love to get the upgrades without worrying about them. So I can turn them off in options if I upgrade?

You really don't have to bother with espionage if you don't want to. I usually just turn up my spending to 10% and leave it at that. Only rarely will I engage in a mission. And vassals can be easily turned off if you want to, though I wouldn't recommend it. They definitely add something to the game IMO. They add much more dynamics to the overall politics in the game.

 

[mechaerik]

And the latest versions of Fall From Heaven II, which is basically like getting a completely other game.... for free.

 

[King Flevance]

I think you may have a wrong impression of vassals and espionage. I can see why someone might turn off vassals - but I don't and I am not even too keen on the implementation of them. But they do bring something new to the game. Espionage as Willem stated is not really as complex and extreme as some threads make it out to be. Most espionage threads seem to be tinkering around with espionage, as in their entire game is centered around it thus making it seem like some overly complicated addition. But I do the same as Willem and take it to 10% and leave it alone. Maybe do a mission here and there but mostly it is just for the passive perks for collecting points on people.

BTS is totally worth it for Great Generals, New Wonders, the New/Old School Space Race (makes space race a fun victory again), New Leaders, New Traits, A more distinct look among civ's cultures and units, and moddability. Then add in the fact that you may end up being one of the people that like vassals or espionage after all and there is even more.

 

[el toro loco]

Hi everyone. I have lurked here since I bought Civ IV a couple of months ago and now with Complete out, I wonder if I should upgrade to BTS.

That being said, let me explain. I am someone who likes a "complex but simple" game. I think Civ IV Vanilla has just the right amount of each in it.

As I read the threads it here, I am noticing it is almost assumed everyone has BTS so a lot of the advice is geared towards that and not applicable to Vanilla. I am worried that BTS will be too much extra thrown into it and I won't enjoy it as much as Vanilla.
I would love everyone's feedback on that.

As a side note, I bought the Game of the Year Edition, does anyone know what is different with that or did I just buy a prettier box?

Thanks,
Patkingpin

i feel i can answer this because i am the same way and have played bts.

civ iv is just fine for simple. great in depth strategy game. it will take you some time to learn everything.

bts introduces a number of complex variables that will also take some time to ajust to. but will not alter the game play that much.

suggestion: if you are bored and want more civs to play against, history, etc... or want a little more complex try bts. if you are completely happy w/ original civ and like the gameplay, it will not get significantly better unless hardcore stategy person.

haven't tried updated smarter ai update.

 

[Iranon]

On the whole, vanilla feels more polished. Some of the new content feels a little tacked-on and the AI misuses some of it horribly.

Turning unwanted features off creates more problems than it solves. Culture has become a very competitive victory condition in BTS, usually easier to attain than space, and turning espionage off turns the (considerable) free espionage from buildings into additional culture.
No Vassals kicks the maintenance system into the junk in games with several landmasses, and resurrects the old 'bigger is always better' maxim of earlier games.

However, the AI is a lot better, and the changes really make the game more diverse. In my opinion, BTS has much greater depth especially in the late game.
Also, the transition is made easier by not having to use the new content actively: Playstyles that ignore vassal states, espionage and corporations are still viable at every level of play.
BUG is also such a great convenience that it's likely to save more headaches then the additional features cause.

As long as you aren't adamant about 'Anything more complex than vanilla civ4 ceases to be fun', I heartily recommend getting BtS.

 

[patkingpin]

I first off want to say these forums are better than any other forums I have ever been on for intellegent discussions for questions like this.
These answers have cleared things up for me a bit.

I have decided to bite the bullet and I am going to buy Complete tonight. I think it is the way to go as I know I eventually want to play Colonization also so I am basically getting BTS and Colonization in one nifty package plus if I am reading right, I won't have to keep moving the start up disc between computer and laptop when I am playing on either one.

The fact that I can keep espionage on 10% and still play like normal is very appealing.
I will take a wait and see approach on Vassals.
I think the BUG mod makes this purchase most appealing though. It seems like a great addition and I can't get anything like it for Vanilla.

Thanks!
Patkingpin.

 

[Willem]

The fact that I can keep espionage on 10% and still play like normal is very appealing.

You will however have to build a few Spies and just park them in your cities. Even though you may not be using espionage the AI will be, and having a Spy in the city can prevent your water supply from getting poisoned. As for the 10%, aside from the odd civ I found that rate, plus building things like Courthouses, is more than enough to get most of the passive espionage abilities, like seeing what techs they're researching and being able to see what's happening around their cities and what they're building. There's a few civs though that really like spending on espionage, especially later in the game, and you might have a hard time getting to the same level as the rest of them. For them, you can adjust your espionage spending so that they get a few more points against them than the others. There's a special screen where you can set "weights" for where your points go with each civ. It's a pretty simple matter to make adjustments there and doesn't require that much energy on your part. It's just a question of clicking on a + or - icon a few times.

 

[patkingpin]

Oh one more question. I am a warmonger by forum definition. I always play conquest victory conditions with all others turned off (although I love the idea of the space race, it is just anti-climactic on Vanilla). I have learned that Tanks, Modern Armor, and flight are all huge to my style on Vanilla. Flight is huge for airports and bombers for me.

I have read that on BTS, my favorites are no longer as big of a deal as on Vanilla. Can anyone help me out on that?

 

[theskibum]

I disagree. I think Flight is one of the most useful modern techs there are. Bombers and tanks can achieve much faster wars than tanks slowed by artillery. I think tanks, MA and bombers are just as important, if not maybe even more so, in BTS as in Vanilla.

The one thing better about BTS with regard to tanks/MA's and bombers is that tanks can no longer do collateral damage. Be warned, the promotion line for barrage is still there, but they will not do collateral, so it is a wasted promo if you give it. This forces a more combined arms tactic with artillery or better yet, bombers, making flight even more valuable.

 

[patkingpin]

Ok, I went out and bought Complete last night! AWESOME!!!! I do love BTS like everyone says I would so far. My learning curve is almost starting over though. There is a lot I have to learn as to which buildings do what and how to best use the Great Wall, lol.

I also downloaded and installed the BUG mod as suggested. This is going to take a lot of getting used to I think.

Thank you to everyone for your help!

 

[Willem]

I also downloaded and installed the BUG mod as suggested. This is going to take a lot of getting used to I think.

Be sure you take a look at all the features. It has a lot to offer and will probably take a bit of time for you to get it set up. And don't forget about the dotmapping feature, it's not exactly readily apparent. Just select Alt-X and you can plan your city locations out very easily.