Vassal Issues

[Merkinball]

I have a question pertaining to vassal states. My last game, I had a splendid war going against my neighbor in an effort for a landgrab. I had acquired 4 cities, and was one turn away from obtaining another three. My enemy capitulated to one of my friends, the war instantly ceased, and my units were returned to my lands. Now I can't get that land unless I declare war on my good friend!

I was kinda upset. That extra land would have throttled me to a late game victory. I had been bogged down in war through the mid-game, and missed out on the new world land grab.

My present game is kind of an opposite scenario. I declared war on Shaka to help out Charlamagne. This war went on, and on, until Shaka capitulated to the Incan. Now I was at war with Shaka and HC. This really didn't bother me. I don't like the Incan, he's far less powerful, and not a threat. Eventually I'll just extort some money and declare peace.

Nope, he then captulates to my long time friend, and deep trading partner Kublai Khan. We've been the best of friends for ages, tech trading, but most importantly, commodity training. This war, along with some Apostolic Palace action, leave me high and dry. All my enemies are still my enemies, but my bestest friend won't talk to me because that damn palace made me stop trading with him, my second best friend is now at war with, along with his now four vassals, and all my other friends don't like the fact that "I declared war on their friend." For some magical reason, I'm the one left out of the circle so far as diplomatic relations go. So now I'm at war with a good friend, I've lost all kinds of resources, my war weriness is through the roof, and I have no friends left at all to recoup all those lost resources. Frustrating. I will overcome though I think.

So alas, after the long story, the question is this: Why in one case did someone capitulate and it caused me to stop a fight that I was profiting from, but in this game, why did it cause the head state to simply declare war on me, even though he was a friend?

* Extra rant - it doesn't help that I've come two turns or less away from 7 wonders, and got blessed with some awful land...

 

[Psyringe]

This cannot happen the way you described it. My guess that you confused capitulation and voluntary vassalization.

For example: If Shaka really *capitulated* to Huayna Capac, then Shaka would have adopted the political situation of HC. If HC wasn't already at war with you, then anybody else's capitulation to him will not suddenly make him at war with you. On the contrary, it will *end* Shaka's war with you.

It is however possible that Shaka voluntarily vassalized himself to HC. This can bring HC into a the war. However, HC will not accept such an offer from Shaka if he really doesn't want a war with you. Apparently HC thought that having Shaka as a vassal was worth starting a war with you.

Likewise, the way Kublai Khan got drawn into a war with you isn't possible the way you describe it. My guess is that HC valuntarily vassalized himself, and Kublai Khan basically backstabbed you by accepting HC's offer.

There are however some oddities left with vassalization and warfare. One is the fact that if you are at war and have an ally, the enemy might surprisingly capitulate to your ally, meaning that you get less from the war than you hoped to. This should be fixed with the upcoming patch (or with Solver's unofficial patch that's already released), it makes it less likely that a civ capitulates to anybody else than the civ that did them the most damage. This way, if a mutual enemy capitulates to an ally of yours, the ally must at least have earned this favour by doing the majority of the damage to the enemy.

 

[Merkinball]

Likewise, the way Kublai Khan got drawn into a war with you isn't possible the way you describe it. My guess is that HC valuntarily vassalized himself, and Kublai Khan basically backstabbed you by accepting HC's offer. - PSyringe

I know charts exist in regards to pleased civs backstabbing, but Khan was a friend. Do friends backstab? Does Kublai Khan even backstab at pleased?

 

[windmilltilter]

It is however possible that Shaka voluntarily vassalized himself to HC. This can bring HC into a the war. However, HC will not accept such an offer from Shaka if he really doesn't want a war with you. Apparently HC thought that having Shaka as a vassal was worth starting a war with you.
...
There are however some oddities left with vassalization and warfare. One is the fact that if you are at war and have an ally, the enemy might surprisingly capitulate to your ally, meaning that you get less from the war than you hoped to. This should be fixed with the upcoming patch (or with Solver's unofficial patch that's already released), it makes it less likely that a civ capitulates to anybody else than the civ that did them the most damage. This way, if a mutual enemy capitulates to an ally of yours, the ally must at least have earned this favour by doing the majority of the damage to the enemy.

BINGO - That's exactly what happened to me my first/last game of BtS. I was one turn away from taking over Portugal's last 2 cities when Portugal surrendered to Germany and became its vassal, leaving me high and dry, although I had captured 10+ Portuguese cities and Germany had only grabbed one.

So I naturally just immediately declared war on Germany (a decent "friendly" civ to me up until then) and kept on going... BWAHAHAHAH