Martinus
Emperor
I am pretty sure this is not the case, especially as that would make Venice's UA pretty .
Venice discussion
- Thread starter nunor
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I am pretty sure this is not the case, especially as that would make Venice's UA pretty .
awesome
Meme Lord
But once they are puppets, puppets are puppets and Venice can buy things in their puppet cities.
HorseshoeHermit
20% accurate as usual, Morty
Players do not generally now conquer anything out of just one home base. Not just funding that army but producing it is quite a hassle. Venice will face a great difficulty early. Since it must get optics to reach that Merchant earlier, it diverts good tech paths if it wants to obtain the second city the easy way. Until Venice does, it has no City Connections. And if it does, it has one less 'free' ITR target.
The Serenissima will be on the back pedal for all of Classical.
awesome
Meme Lord
Also, all of these abbreviations need to stop. They all seem to mean like 8 things each.
You have seen that the Lighthouse, which comes with Optics, now gives production as well as food to sea resources? Optics is very much going to be to best initial tech path for a coastal civ in BNW.
loserforsale
Chieftain
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Given that there's going to be far less gold on the map, what will puppeted cities be like in BNW before you've trading posted them up? I ask here because it seems that this could greatly affect decisions of when to use MoVs - puppet CSs as soon as possible, or hold back a bit to let the population grow a bit first?
The other question coming to mind is, suppose a CS goes to war and takes over another city. Would a MoV then give the Venetian player control of both cities, or just one of them?
The other question coming to mind is, suppose a CS goes to war and takes over another city. Would a MoV then give the Venetian player control of both cities, or just one of them?
TheMarshmallowBear
Benelovent Chieftain of the Ursu Kingdom
I just realised that Venice are going to be a Cultural POWER HOUSE Policy wise, these guys will only pay for a single city policy, as the cost does not increase when you puppet cities. They will also have a lot more happiness.
If you want your puppet to grow, just send a trade route from Venice to the puppet with food. It's not like you won't have a few spare trade routes.
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Yes. They can really click out the So Pols, but that's not how you win CVs anymore.
Things are a bit more iffy on the Tourism front. If they can compete well with Wonder building, and spawn enough GWAMs and afford to buy GW-slot buildings and Hotels in the Puppets, they will do well. If those are things they can't do as well as France or Brazil, Venice may not be as competitive in the Cultural Victory.
I do salivate at the anticipation that a Tourist Trap Venice could potentially flip quite a few cities. Because the factors in that are Tourism vs Culture, rival Ideologies, and distance to capital. Venice is the most likely to have rival cities very close to its capital.
Martinus
Emperor
We haven't played the game yet, but I have a feeling that a single capital Venice with lots of tourism wonders built and all the slots filled with GWs is going to out-perform culturally a wide empire, hotels or not.
I mean, consider the buildings that we know give you a GW slot:
That's (if my math is right) 30 slots that could potentially fit into a single city. Even assuming you do not get them all, and end up with 20 slots or so, this is probably more than the number of great works you can get in a single game - so I don't think going wide is going to that important, especially if you focus on cultural victory and do not need to get distracted by building settlers etc. (plus, the fact that several of them are national wonders, also helps tall empires).
The only problem I can see, early on, is that a one-city Venice, unlike a wide empire, won't be able to quickly get a specific type of slot it needs by, say, building an amphitheatre or an opera - so it may be forced to trade for the right type of GW it has a slot for. But this even further reinforces the Venetian theme as that of a trading powerhouse.
And I kinda disagree that getting So Pols quickly is not how you win a CV anymore - a lot of crucial wonders (Louvre, Uffizzi, etc.) are now unlocked by opening a policy tree so being able to get that asap after reaching a relevant era is going to be important. Plus, filling out the Exploration tree is also very important to get to those hidden archeological sites before everyone else.
So I can definitely see how Venice, even if it does not puppet a single city, could turn into a tourism powerhouse. Just use all your extra trade routes to bring you gold, buy all the ordinary buildings you need and just focus on cranking a wonder after another.
Ryoga
King
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Sorry for being late to the party, and sorry if this has been discussed before but...
What happens when Venice gets conquered? Will the civ be given the option to annex the new capital or will that remains a puppet?
Even if Venice has the ability to buy stuff in puppets it would be severely crippling to completely lose the ability to build stuff. That means no wonders for once and you won't even have the option to move your great works elsewhere nor will you be able to create more.
Of course that means that when you have Venice as an opponent you'll go for its capital first, and it will more likely have an ocean bias which means it will be easy to conquer.
What happens when Venice gets conquered? Will the civ be given the option to annex the new capital or will that remains a puppet?
Even if Venice has the ability to buy stuff in puppets it would be severely crippling to completely lose the ability to build stuff. That means no wonders for once and you won't even have the option to move your great works elsewhere nor will you be able to create more.
Of course that means that when you have Venice as an opponent you'll go for its capital first, and it will more likely have an ocean bias which means it will be easy to conquer.
Talcove
Slayer of Spies
That brings up a better question.
What if you're Venice and your capital is conquered, and you later retake it? If your new capital is un-puppeted does that mean it will stay that way after you take back your original capital? Or, if you re conquer your capital, will it be forced into a puppet state because it was conquered?
What if you're Venice and your capital is conquered, and you later retake it? If your new capital is un-puppeted does that mean it will stay that way after you take back your original capital? Or, if you re conquer your capital, will it be forced into a puppet state because it was conquered?
Yzman
Deity
Retaking a city is not capturing it in game terms. The city goes back to your control always, you don't even get the option of puppeting or annexing.
VainApocalypse
Warlord
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To those discussing Venice's potential at winning Cultural Victories, remember that there's more to be considered than Great Works and Wonders. Tourism is increased with trade routes. This is indicated by Arioch's website. It's unclear how the math pans out, but if it's in anyway additive, having double the number of trade routes would make tourism a quintessential strength for Venice.
ggmoyang
Emperor
Tradition is no-brainer IMO. You're not going to get a decent religion even with piety, one city does not provide enough faith. (unless you get floodplains and desert folklore)
BTW free aqueduct is given to puppets when you finish tradition. (not retroactively though.)
free aqueduct does not apply to puppet. Since Venice can't annex, you can never get another 3.
on the other hand, 5 faith per turn early with cheap shine and temple (+1 faith) seems an ok rate to get a late religion.
ggmoyang
Emperor
Did you tested recently? At least it provided free aqueduct when GnK came out. http://i44.tinypic.com/rvd45j.jpg
And there is not much chance you get good belief with late religion. Tradition will give immediate, reliable benefits.
VainoValkea
Emperor
This is a very important factor to consider. I believe this will have a significant effect on the culture game.
By the way, consider the horror of being Venice and getting embargoed by the WC...
Ryoga
King
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Which is why Venice should try to stay in friendly terms with most civs. Pretty hard considering it will have to conquer at least a few cities to be on par with the other civs in the tech race.
This also becomes a problem with her ability to "buy" city states. Well let's just assume that automatically converting one city to a puppet won't piss off the civs that were protecting it. You'll still have the same issue that Maria Theresa has.
In other words it's all fine when the city states are near your borders or in the middle of the ocean, but you are bound to be hated if you just get a city in another continent right next to an expansionist civ that is looking for its next mark.
Usually when I play as Maria Theresa I think twice before claiming city states that are too far from my borders and next to a major power. However in her case that's just optional, Venice on the other side might end up being pressured to do so if it's desperate to get new cities.
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