Venice
- Thread starter void_genesis
- Start date
I like this merchant as settler idea. It’s cooky, but it’s Venice so that’s what I expect
I think it will address the meat of the issue. Venice still won’t have as much space as another civ (probably), but not so little that’s a true problem. Should also help the unit supply as well.
I think it will address the meat of the issue. Venice still won’t have as much space as another civ (probably), but not so little that’s a true problem. Should also help the unit supply as well.
Txurce
Deity
I'm really looking forward to seeing how the AI responds.
Who knows? Gazebo may have some idea already!
Who knows? Gazebo may have some idea already!
Cobra522
Chieftain
- Joined
- May 3, 2017
- Messages
- 16
I approve of this change. Venice needed some way of exerting more centralized pressure across the map and this should help.
I had an idea somewhat similar to this utilizing MoV. Instead of founding puppets, have the colonia create mini cities; it would be a tile improvement that can be placed similar to where regular settlers would be able to go but would be able to collect surrounding yields for the capital. Give it major defensive bonuses and the ability for its borders to grow with the capitals culture.
I can see how this would be much more difficult to implement than the solution already suggested, but it might be a fun way give venice more land while still being unable to found any additional cities at all.
I had an idea somewhat similar to this utilizing MoV. Instead of founding puppets, have the colonia create mini cities; it would be a tile improvement that can be placed similar to where regular settlers would be able to go but would be able to collect surrounding yields for the capital. Give it major defensive bonuses and the ability for its borders to grow with the capitals culture.
I can see how this would be much more difficult to implement than the solution already suggested, but it might be a fun way give venice more land while still being unable to found any additional cities at all.
Legen
Emperor
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2015
- Messages
- 1,500
An alternative is to make Venice gain 2 MoV upon researching Trade instead of one. Or an extra MoV from another technology.
ridjack
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2017
- Messages
- 1,000
Some comments, with a caveat:
The caveat: I think I'm coming from a different place with Venice than most people. He's been my favorite civ since vanilla.
I also tend to have the easiest time with him; I almost always go up one difficulty level when playing Venice. He's the only civ I've successfully beaten Emperor with since I started playing VP, and it was still one of the easiest games I've ever played.
With that out of the way: I'm currently on turn 220 in a standard speed game. (Late medieval/early renaissance for those who play other speeds.) Tectonics map, large size, 14 civs / 28 CS (don't ask), all map settings random except resource distribution and coastal starts, which are at their default settings. Events disabled, vassalage disabled, ancient ruins disabled.
My quick hot-take on this game so far is that Venice's early game seems a good bit stronger. Despite being bordered by two warmongers with terrain in their favor (Denmark on the same ocean as my capital, Inca on the other side of the mountains bordering my capital; the latter already have two capitals), and being forced to ignore basically all of my medieval-era infrastructure in Venice in order to prepare defenses, I'm sitting comfortably high in both the scoreboard and demographics. First in techs, somehow.
I didn't get to do much experimentation with the changes to the MoV, as the already relatively crowded island I spawned on was made worse by Babylon's decision to be a jerk:
And I got quite lucky with CS placement in any case:
It did feel to me like my first MoV, from Trade, came a bit too late to really alleviate the concerns about Venice being "free land" for his nearby civs. Babylon was able to research Pottery, build a settler and have it escorted to where Akkad is in those screenshots before my first MoV could get in place. That city would have taken my silver monopoly and been in position to steal my only sources of horses from my capital. Considering the second one comes much later unless you go Authority, I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine a situation where that could lock you into having only Venice, except now you don't even have the culture bomb from the MoV to reclaim "stolen" tiles.
The supply feels great so far. I'm stretched a bit thin by being a Tradition civ with two bordering aggressors needing both land and naval coverage, but that's typical of anyone in the same situation. Definite props for that.
I may or may not continue this game; I feel like I need to make some adjustments to my map settings, and in any case I'm fairly confident I have everything well in hand, which tends to make things a bit boring for me when it happens this early. I'll definitely keep going for a bit to see if Harald and especially Pachacuti can make my life interesting, but I'm already well into snowballing my way to an easy cultural or science victory, even with neglecting my infrastructure.
EDIT: I never saw if G commented on the suggestion someone else made to have Venice force-spawn nearby, but that really feels like it would be the most elegant solution to me.
The caveat: I think I'm coming from a different place with Venice than most people. He's been my favorite civ since vanilla.
I also tend to have the easiest time with him; I almost always go up one difficulty level when playing Venice. He's the only civ I've successfully beaten Emperor with since I started playing VP, and it was still one of the easiest games I've ever played.
With that out of the way: I'm currently on turn 220 in a standard speed game. (Late medieval/early renaissance for those who play other speeds.) Tectonics map, large size, 14 civs / 28 CS (don't ask), all map settings random except resource distribution and coastal starts, which are at their default settings. Events disabled, vassalage disabled, ancient ruins disabled.
My quick hot-take on this game so far is that Venice's early game seems a good bit stronger. Despite being bordered by two warmongers with terrain in their favor (Denmark on the same ocean as my capital, Inca on the other side of the mountains bordering my capital; the latter already have two capitals), and being forced to ignore basically all of my medieval-era infrastructure in Venice in order to prepare defenses, I'm sitting comfortably high in both the scoreboard and demographics. First in techs, somehow.
I didn't get to do much experimentation with the changes to the MoV, as the already relatively crowded island I spawned on was made worse by Babylon's decision to be a jerk:
Spoiler :
And I got quite lucky with CS placement in any case:
Spoiler :
It did feel to me like my first MoV, from Trade, came a bit too late to really alleviate the concerns about Venice being "free land" for his nearby civs. Babylon was able to research Pottery, build a settler and have it escorted to where Akkad is in those screenshots before my first MoV could get in place. That city would have taken my silver monopoly and been in position to steal my only sources of horses from my capital. Considering the second one comes much later unless you go Authority, I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine a situation where that could lock you into having only Venice, except now you don't even have the culture bomb from the MoV to reclaim "stolen" tiles.
The supply feels great so far. I'm stretched a bit thin by being a Tradition civ with two bordering aggressors needing both land and naval coverage, but that's typical of anyone in the same situation. Definite props for that.
I may or may not continue this game; I feel like I need to make some adjustments to my map settings, and in any case I'm fairly confident I have everything well in hand, which tends to make things a bit boring for me when it happens this early. I'll definitely keep going for a bit to see if Harald and especially Pachacuti can make my life interesting, but I'm already well into snowballing my way to an easy cultural or science victory, even with neglecting my infrastructure.
EDIT: I never saw if G commented on the suggestion someone else made to have Venice force-spawn nearby, but that really feels like it would be the most elegant solution to me.
Toying around with 7-17-3 version Venice, some bug/oddities/design reports:
- I am able to buy caravans/cargo ships in my MoV founded puppets despite not owning a caravanserary/harbor there.
- Freshly founded colonia decides on the first building on its own, but it displays as it's ready for a new construction project. I can clic 'next turn' or reload a save and fix it, annoying though.
- Science from trade routes from puppets is unaffected by the 50% venetian puppet penality, while culture is. I didn't check if that's the same for all civilizations, nonetheless it's inconsistent.
- Aquiring a CS through the MoV counts as military conquest, and the CS loses all cultural and defensive buildings. I think pacific assimilation should bypass that.
- All newly aquired units also lose any promotions they had and go back to level 1. The same happens when any civ gifts units to a CS, I'd just like for this behaviour to be looked at.
I rushed Trade and had my first colonia in a good spot at turn 39, while being forward settled on another front. I concour that with a couple of aggressive neighbours Venice still risks to be boxed in too early, and I wouldn't mind to retain the old colonia UI over the bland Towns, to have another way to cultural bomb my surroundings. Overall, the town UI is way too weak of an option for Venice, who can use a merchant to found/buy cities, get double CS gold mission or improve a single tile.
On a related concert, Towns are weak for any civs: I'd maybe plant my first GM but only because of low gold/wltk in the classical era, after that the benefits from instant yields are way better, and any single UI only boosts the 'bulb' effect by 5% (1 additional turn over the 20 global wltk turns? who cares), where other GPI boost future GP uses by 20%.
Puppets priorities: I feel like I must babysit them all the time with a gold investment to lean them toward the better choices or they make a bunch of suboptimal choices. Granary as first building when already working oasis+wheat floodplains+grassland cotton? Shrine please.
My second colonia went for Amphitheater -> Writers' Guild -> Baths -> Custom House 
, seriously why? Given no GPP in puppets and halved yields, I'd focus on some production buildings first...
Some last musings as I'm still running my first post-patch Venice game: why the arbitrary limit of 3 coloniae? Given you can't really spam MoVs on demand like standard settlers, and with different map sizes/placement available, I wouldn't mind to have the artificial cap removed, to have a late-game expansion option that doesn't involve conquest while still preserving the 'occ' feeling. It's also weird that a turn 40 colonia starts with the same buildings/tiles/pop as a turn 200 one, those could improve with techs to mimic the pioneer/colonist upgrades.
- I am able to buy caravans/cargo ships in my MoV founded puppets despite not owning a caravanserary/harbor there.
Spoiler :
- Freshly founded colonia decides on the first building on its own, but it displays as it's ready for a new construction project. I can clic 'next turn' or reload a save and fix it, annoying though.
Spoiler :
- Science from trade routes from puppets is unaffected by the 50% venetian puppet penality, while culture is. I didn't check if that's the same for all civilizations, nonetheless it's inconsistent.
Spoiler :
- Aquiring a CS through the MoV counts as military conquest, and the CS loses all cultural and defensive buildings. I think pacific assimilation should bypass that.
- All newly aquired units also lose any promotions they had and go back to level 1. The same happens when any civ gifts units to a CS, I'd just like for this behaviour to be looked at.
I rushed Trade and had my first colonia in a good spot at turn 39, while being forward settled on another front. I concour that with a couple of aggressive neighbours Venice still risks to be boxed in too early, and I wouldn't mind to retain the old colonia UI over the bland Towns, to have another way to cultural bomb my surroundings. Overall, the town UI is way too weak of an option for Venice, who can use a merchant to found/buy cities, get double CS gold mission or improve a single tile.
On a related concert, Towns are weak for any civs: I'd maybe plant my first GM but only because of low gold/wltk in the classical era, after that the benefits from instant yields are way better, and any single UI only boosts the 'bulb' effect by 5% (1 additional turn over the 20 global wltk turns? who cares), where other GPI boost future GP uses by 20%.
Puppets priorities: I feel like I must babysit them all the time with a gold investment to lean them toward the better choices or they make a bunch of suboptimal choices. Granary as first building when already working oasis+wheat floodplains+grassland cotton? Shrine please.
My second colonia went for Amphitheater -> Writers' Guild -> Baths -> Custom House , seriously why? Given no GPP in puppets and halved yields, I'd focus on some production buildings first...Some last musings as I'm still running my first post-patch Venice game: why the arbitrary limit of 3 coloniae? Given you can't really spam MoVs on demand like standard settlers, and with different map sizes/placement available, I wouldn't mind to have the artificial cap removed, to have a late-game expansion option that doesn't involve conquest while still preserving the 'occ' feeling. It's also weird that a turn 40 colonia starts with the same buildings/tiles/pop as a turn 200 one, those could improve with techs to mimic the pioneer/colonist upgrades.
ridjack
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2017
- Messages
- 1,000
Toying around with 7-17-3 version Venice, some bug/oddities/design reports:
- I am able to buy caravans/cargo ships in my MoV founded puppets despite not owning a caravanserary/harbor there.
Spoiler :
- Freshly founded colonia decides on the first building on its own, but it displays as it's ready for a new construction project. I can clic 'next turn' or reload a save and fix it, annoying though.
Spoiler :
- Science from trade routes from puppets is unaffected by the 50% venetian puppet penality, while culture is. I didn't check if that's the same for all civilizations, nonetheless it's inconsistent.
Spoiler :
- Aquiring a CS through the MoV counts as military conquest, and the CS loses all cultural and defensive buildings. I think pacific assimilation should bypass that.
- All newly aquired units also lose any promotions they had and go back to level 1. The same happens when any civ gifts units to a CS, I'd just like for this behaviour to be looked at.
I rushed Trade and had my first colonia in a good spot at turn 39, while being forward settled on another front. I concour that with a couple of aggressive neighbours Venice still risks to be boxed in too early, and I wouldn't mind to retain the old colonia UI over the bland Towns, to have another way to cultural bomb my surroundings. Overall, the town UI is way too weak of an option for Venice, who can use a merchant to found/buy cities, get double CS gold mission or improve a single tile.
On a related concert, Towns are weak for any civs: I'd maybe plant my first GM but only because of low gold/wltk in the classical era, after that the benefits from instant yields are way better, and any single UI only boosts the 'bulb' effect by 5% (1 additional turn over the 20 global wltk turns? who cares), where other GPI boost future GP uses by 20%.
Puppets priorities: I feel like I must babysit them all the time with a gold investment to lean them toward the better choices or they make a bunch of suboptimal choices. Granary as first building when already working oasis+wheat floodplains+grassland cotton? Shrine please.
Some last musings as I'm still running my first post-patch Venice game: why the arbitrary limit of 3 coloniae? Given you can't really spam MoVs on demand like standard settlers, and with different map sizes/placement available, I wouldn't mind to have the artificial cap removed, to have a late-game expansion option that doesn't involve conquest while still preserving the 'occ' feeling. It's also weird that a turn 40 colonia starts with the same buildings/tiles/pop as a turn 200 one, those could improve with techs to mimic the pioneer/colonist upgrades.
I noticed pretty much all of the same issues; forgot to note down a lot of them.
The "acquired units losing promotions" I had noticed in a different game with Prize Ships. It annoyed me there, too, since I ended up just deleting or sacrificing those units since they were way worse than anything I had or could build and taking up my supply+maintenance to negligible benefit. Made a bit more sense there; I just chose to believe I was only acquiring the ship and not the experienced crew. With acquiring a CS' units, though, it doesn't make any sense. Same with the conquest-loss buildings.
Re: puppet priorities... I could go on a day-long rant about how horrible puppet management is with Venice. Sure, you have the ability to choose their builds, unlike any other civ, as long as you have the gold. But:
- That gets pricey, fast, particularly in the early game when it's the most important and you can least afford it. It hasn't been too much of an issue in the past, but my one game with Venice since the changes had me absolutely gold-starved. I could barely afford to maintain my sizable defensive military, nevermind trying to invest in buildings in *Venice,*; puppets were pretty much on their own and not a thing I could do about it.
- Wide Venice is a nightmare to manage, and it's completely because of the nature of puppets. With a normal wide civ, you can annex your most important cities and thus get nice QoL things like a big notification you have to respond to before you can end turn. If you go wide with Venice, or hell, even if you just have one city in a far-off corner that you're not looking at super-regularly, and you need to do, say, Barracks -> Armory -> Military Academy, or Walls -> Castle -> Arsenal etc, the only notification you get that your building is finished is the almost-invisible white text in the middle of the screen. If you need to have those buildings built in twenty cities... gods help you.
Re: Removing colonia limit, I'd have to hard disagree without some substantial changes. Currently, the "point" of Venice is primarily that you focus on Venice and have the puppets as sources of things you simply can't get in a single city: extra supply, better trade route coverage, certain resources, etc. Giving him the ability to settle cities ad nauseum feels like it really wants to shift the focus towards the puppets quite a bit more. I could see this being fun in a different way, and done correctly (which it would be, since Gazebo's the one doing it) could be turned into a nice inflection point for Venice, with a decision as to which side you want to focus on. Starts sounding more generically similar to every other civ the more I expound on it, though.
And yes, if we're going to continue with Venice settling cities, I think they absolutely need to "level up" as Pioneers and Colonists do.
Agreed that the puppet building logic is super silly. They tend to ignore the barracks line when unit cap is highly important. I also think CS annex should keep buildings since it is a peaceful annexation.
Overall my Venice playthrough so far is still much better than pre-patch, though.
Overall my Venice playthrough so far is still much better than pre-patch, though.
I tried new Venice, here are my thoughts after the early game
1. When you settle your city, the choose production logo appears and will only disappear if you reload the game.
2. Your colonia begins with a market, and will work the merchant forever, even if you are unhappy. Initially I thought this was cool, it meant my capital could do other things, and that city would get another merchant of Venice in 50 turns. But he gets no great people points, and he kills his own growth.
3. How is his production queue supposed to work? I was under the impression that if I spent gold in a puppet, that building would get the priority in the queue. I also can't invest gold in a building that already has hammers towards it in puppets.
4. I tried authority Venice, it was just awful. I don't care that I get 4 free military units if I buy a city state, even if you use them to conquer a neighbor you are in a terrible position for the rest of the game. With authority why are you researching trade?
5. For early aggression, what you should probably do instead of this is the gold/diplomacy mission, buy a bunch of archers, and rush someone that way. A culture or faith alliance is usually way more valuable than the stupid city state will be. Either way, tradition or even progress seems way better long term. Tradition can get a religion much easier, and Progress's culture sources aren't affected by puppet status.
6. Can Merchants of Venice get +1 movement? They take a long time to reach city states.
7. With a normal civ, puppets LOVE to build barracks and armories, but Venice's puppets seem to ignore them.
With all this said, settling colonia is super useful and he is actually not that bad, but mostly for the same reasons a one-city challenge isn't that hard.
1. When you settle your city, the choose production logo appears and will only disappear if you reload the game.
2. Your colonia begins with a market, and will work the merchant forever, even if you are unhappy. Initially I thought this was cool, it meant my capital could do other things, and that city would get another merchant of Venice in 50 turns. But he gets no great people points, and he kills his own growth.
3. How is his production queue supposed to work? I was under the impression that if I spent gold in a puppet, that building would get the priority in the queue. I also can't invest gold in a building that already has hammers towards it in puppets.
4. I tried authority Venice, it was just awful. I don't care that I get 4 free military units if I buy a city state, even if you use them to conquer a neighbor you are in a terrible position for the rest of the game. With authority why are you researching trade?
5. For early aggression, what you should probably do instead of this is the gold/diplomacy mission, buy a bunch of archers, and rush someone that way. A culture or faith alliance is usually way more valuable than the stupid city state will be. Either way, tradition or even progress seems way better long term. Tradition can get a religion much easier, and Progress's culture sources aren't affected by puppet status.
6. Can Merchants of Venice get +1 movement? They take a long time to reach city states.
7. With a normal civ, puppets LOVE to build barracks and armories, but Venice's puppets seem to ignore them.
With all this said, settling colonia is super useful and he is actually not that bad, but mostly for the same reasons a one-city challenge isn't that hard.
Last edited:
TranceBlossom
Warlord
Sell your soul to
I couldn't figure it out so I played a whole Venice game with the Choose Production button taunting me every turn.
HungryForFood
Prince
Investing adds buildings to the end of the queue. However, you can actually change the queue order, just try dragging things around.
I didn't realise that until quite a few games of Venice.
You can just save and reload (I edited my post to finish my sentence)
tu_79
Deity
Spawning a city state Settler at 6-8 tiles from the starting point seems interesting, if doable.
Omen of Peace
Prince
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2018
- Messages
- 404
I've finally tested the new Venice on Immortal. I went Authority to try it out (a long time ago I quite liked Authority Venice, but I was playing King or Emperor at the time, and the AI didn't perform as well in wars, so it was easier).
Merchants / Pyramids
I got a Merchant thanks to Pyramids, then Trade, then the Imperium policy, so that was a nice 3 satellite cities in succession.
Especially the Pyramids' Merchant is quite amazing, since you get a Monument and Market right off the bat (when you only have 2, or 3 Techs researched!).
IMO, Venice should always beeline Pyramids... except perhaps if they really want Stonehenge (for Goddess of Beauty, and Tradition wonder-whoring).
I like the new Merchant! Solid A.
It might have been nice to keep the Colonia for some edge cases, but I think I'll soon forget about it.
Happiness & warmongering
However, I don't quite like that Happiness is not a hurdle *at all* for Venice: Happiness is supposed to be what hinders warmongers from gobbling too much, too quickly.
Of course, Venice has its own integrated "brakes": only being able to build units in the capital, and not having any military advantage in UA. But if they nab Terracotta, they should really be able to capture a few cities, and continue from there.
I was up against the Mayans who soon got more advanced in research and who had their UU, yet with Terracotta I did fine*.
Note that I can prolong the war a very long time because Venice is not burdened by unhappiness, so I just need to shoulder the War Weariness, which I honestly haven't felt at all. My happiness only dipped when I finally captured the Mayan capital, but the war ended right after with me vassalizing them.
I would recommend to reintroduce at least a small bit of unhappiness from Venice's puppets, though reduced compared to mainstream civ.
In exchange, I have to say I miss the +X% GM points in the Capital... perhaps it can make a comeback?
Supply
On the upside, supply has not been an issue at all, so that past issue seems fully fixed.
Venice National wonders
Even as a warmonger, I went for Rialto (the gold/trade National Wonder) over the warmonger National Wonder (Arsenale, I think). But the balance is slightly better than before: the extra movement point for ships is tempting.
* I had a scare when the Mayan entered the Medieval era AND somehow managed to produce a Knight in the same turn, since that caught me completely off-guard. It killed a Skirmisher easily but then they kinda squandered it. The buffed Swordsmen (and slight Knight nerf) certainly helped: they warded it off until Comp Bows took it down.
Merchants / Pyramids
I got a Merchant thanks to Pyramids, then Trade, then the Imperium policy, so that was a nice 3 satellite cities in succession.
Especially the Pyramids' Merchant is quite amazing, since you get a Monument and Market right off the bat (when you only have 2, or 3 Techs researched!).
IMO, Venice should always beeline Pyramids... except perhaps if they really want Stonehenge (for Goddess of Beauty, and Tradition wonder-whoring).
I like the new Merchant! Solid A.
It might have been nice to keep the Colonia for some edge cases, but I think I'll soon forget about it.
Happiness & warmongering
However, I don't quite like that Happiness is not a hurdle *at all* for Venice: Happiness is supposed to be what hinders warmongers from gobbling too much, too quickly.
Of course, Venice has its own integrated "brakes": only being able to build units in the capital, and not having any military advantage in UA. But if they nab Terracotta, they should really be able to capture a few cities, and continue from there.
I was up against the Mayans who soon got more advanced in research and who had their UU, yet with Terracotta I did fine*.
Note that I can prolong the war a very long time because Venice is not burdened by unhappiness, so I just need to shoulder the War Weariness, which I honestly haven't felt at all. My happiness only dipped when I finally captured the Mayan capital, but the war ended right after with me vassalizing them.
I would recommend to reintroduce at least a small bit of unhappiness from Venice's puppets, though reduced compared to mainstream civ.
In exchange, I have to say I miss the +X% GM points in the Capital... perhaps it can make a comeback?
Supply
On the upside, supply has not been an issue at all, so that past issue seems fully fixed.
Venice National wonders
Even as a warmonger, I went for Rialto (the gold/trade National Wonder) over the warmonger National Wonder (Arsenale, I think). But the balance is slightly better than before: the extra movement point for ships is tempting.
* I had a scare when the Mayan entered the Medieval era AND somehow managed to produce a Knight in the same turn, since that caught me completely off-guard. It killed a Skirmisher easily but then they kinda squandered it. The buffed Swordsmen (and slight Knight nerf) certainly helped: they warded it off until Comp Bows took it down.
Ayana the Pale
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2018
- Messages
- 41
I don't know if this is still an issue in the latest patch (I'm behind by about a week or two) but I was able to capture three settlers from a city state I purchased as Venice. They functioned as normal settlers - didn't make puppeted cities and were able to found and upgrade to colonists without issue. Not sure if I'm missing anything, but it seems odd that I'd be able to capture them like that - to say nothing about city states making settlers in the first place (Why would they? They don't use them. seems a waste of gold and production).
kenneth1221
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2016
- Messages
- 202
Hi,
Good practice is to send bug reports to the github page.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/bug-reports--please-read.566461/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/bug-report-wiki.539525/
https://github.com/LoneGazebo/Community-Patch-DLL/issues
This link is the most comprehensive way to make a report. It's easier for the managers to keep track of bugs and remove duplicate issues this way.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...d-bug-reports-to-github.655371/#post-15681894
Good luck!
Legen
Emperor
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2015
- Messages
- 1,500
On a note, Venice's puppets have a -50% penalty on faith generation, which restricts the benefits of shrines and many pantheons. It gets quite evident with God of Commerce, as the city connections end giving only 1 faith (faith from trade routes seem bugged, already posted on github).
Does anyone think it would be reasonable to let Venice's puppets have no faith penalty? That would make this civ less crippled when it comes to founding.
Does anyone think it would be reasonable to let Venice's puppets have no faith penalty? That would make this civ less crippled when it comes to founding.
Zanteogo
King
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2015
- Messages
- 989
I'm against any further Venice "slowly changing them to be like any other civ" crawl.This is how this unique civ is supposed to work. I swear we are like one or two more changes to letting them just build settlers and found full cities like any other civ.
Ya, founding a religion with them with using openers that require multiple cities producing faith is a bad idea, and bad planning on the players part.
