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Venice

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by void_genesis, Dec 9, 2014.

  1. void_genesis

    void_genesis Chieftain

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    Just started playing a random leader game and rolled venice, king, continents, standard speed using CSD module. I got two crab and marble in my capital, and moved slightly to have five deer within my city borders, then got the extra food and faith on camps pantheon. At turn 150ish my city has grown to about 40 and is still climbing steadily. There are maritime CS all over the map, so I am pumping out envoys to ally them and go for a diplo victory. I got almost all the wonders I wanted and converted most of my continent (with 5 other AI) to my religion, so world religion is also an option. I think I will go for a OCC approach since settling great merchants now helps build my food base and population even more. I am finding it a bit hard to spend my gold income well, though I got to buy a naval fleet to explore the oceans, and tend to just build wonders and buy useful buildings as they come up, and diplomatic units as fast as my paper supply allows.

    So....TLDR- all in all the recommended modpack seems to work well for Venice. The non-exponential growth also seems to make OCC strategies more viable since population growth doesnt become increasingly difficult. Ill play on and see how high I can pump my population with a half dozen maritime CS allies.
     
  2. Llednar Twem

    Llednar Twem Chieftain

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    In light of the Austria discussion, I feel like this civ might deserve a re-evaluation. Venice shares Austria's old issue of loosing votes and yields by taking city-states, with the added layer that doing so is nearly essential to actually expand. The Venetian player doesn't even get to directly control a city-state after buying it!

    As I mentioned in the Austria thread, I think my idea of having a way to retain city-state yields after claiming them could fit quite well with the rest of Venice's uniques. Unlike Austria, Venice would be inherently limited in the number of city-states it could do this to by merchant generation, especially since specialists can only be manually assigned in the capital. All this said, the UA is already fairly long-winded and anyone could potentially get the UU as a city-state gift, which led to the idea I had in the Austria thread: a courthouse replacement UB.

    As it stands, the courthouse is a dead building for Venice. It can only be built in occupied cities...which Venice can never actually have. Replacing the building with a UB that Venice actually CAN use seems like a fairly reasonable thing to do. As such, my suggestion is this: Replace the Doge's Palace with a courthouse replacement UB that can only be built in purchased city-states and provides yields based on what it was built in. These could be full ally yields, or adjusted down if balance requires it.

    I'm not really sure how I feel about the Doge's Palace anyway. Sure, there's nothing else like it in the game, which certainly fits the "unique" part...but it's also a unique building that you can never actually build. It's just there from the start. The extra yields in the capital could just as easily be part of the UA and it would make no difference from a gameplay standpoint.
     
  3. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    The main difference between Austria and Venice is that Venice don't need to ally the city-state first, meaning they don't have to waste gold or time getting their influence up before they grab the city-state.
     
  4. Llednar Twem

    Llednar Twem Chieftain

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    True, I guess Austria took more effort to loose the benefits of said effort. Venice doesn't really take them easily either though, since it needs to generate and spend a great merchant just to get a city that can't even be directly controlled.

    Even if you don't like my idea for the effect though, what do you think of the general idea of switching the UB to a courthouse replacement? As I said, the normal courthouse literally cannot be built by Venice, and the Doge's palace is a UB that you can't actually build. Considering your stance on monument and shrine UBs I was actually kind of expecting you to be more supportive of replacing it than most anyone else here.
     
  5. arnoldlcl

    arnoldlcl Chieftain

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    Is there any point in investing gold into a building in a puppeted city as Venice? Or is there no way to induce the governor to start producing buildings that have been invested in? Because in that case Venice's additional ability to purchase in puppeted cities is only good for rush-buying units.
     
  6. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    Wait, Venice can't buy buildings in their puppets? I haven't played them since the investment change, but I pretty much figured they could still buy stuff since that's part of their UA. If what you're saying is true then Venice can't use that part of their UA at all, as puppeted cities can't build Barakcs/armories and so on by themselves, and therefore you can't buy units there either.
     
  7. Finarvi

    Finarvi Chieftain

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    I like the idea of replacing courthause. It will be ellegant change :)

    I have two ideas of what this courthause replacement would do:
    1. Provide 1 delegate for world congress. It would also fix problem that puppeting ally CS makes you loose 1 vote.
    2. Gives you control over CS. This one could be controversial as Venice was designed to be 1-city civ. But I think it's strange that it's the only civ that can't control more cities. This way Venice would still be restricted as it couldn't build cities on good spots and would need to choose between worse spots (sometimes with plenty of SR or natural wonder) and I think it's quite interesting.
     
  8. arnoldlcl

    arnoldlcl Chieftain

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    Funak: Yes, as far as I can remember, Venice can invest gold but not buy buildings outright in their puppets. Last time I played Venice was with the 3/26 version, but I don't think there've been any changes to Venice since then.

    As an aside, it's also impossible to invest in a building once it's being built by the puppet (because you have to remove it from the queue first, and you can't do that with a puppet).
     
  9. Eleanorea

    Eleanorea Chieftain

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    Hello, i'm new to this mod, but really enjoying it so far :)
    I'm bumping this thread, so far, all previous posters have explained the raisons that make Venice a "poor" civilization right now : it's impossible to buy buildings in your puppet's city states, and the courthouse is unavailable to Venice.

    Could you allow Venice to choose what buildings they construct in puppeted city states?
    Or allow to buy buildings like the non moded game ?
    Another amazing thing would be to allow the construction of wonders in puppeted city states, something that would gives us more strategoc option.

    Thank you for reading (my poorly worded :p) post.
     
  10. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    I don't play Venice enough to comment on this but some people who do claim that Venice is among the strongest civs in the game currently.
     
  11. Eleanorea

    Eleanorea Chieftain

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    Well, i might have express poorly my thoughts. Venice is sure strong in the vanilla game (single player), but with the community patch, i believe some of the design behind the civ are not working perfectly as intented by the developpers.
    I mean, don't you think it's a bit harsh to puppet a city, only to find out that you have almost no control over these puppeted cities? At least in the non moded game, you can buy the buidings you need, but right now :
    - You can't decide what to build in puppeted cities. The AI does that.
    - You can invest gold for buildings in your puppeted cities, but you have no control over the AI, so the AI might not build what you have invested gold for. (Invest gold into a monument, AI decide to build a shrine)
    - You can invest gold in wonders, but so far, i have never seen my puppet cities building any wonders. (i might be wrong about that)
    - You can't expand your puppeted borders by buying them. (Could be a nice addition without breakling balance i think)
    - you can't build courthouse in conquered cities, making a domination game pretty "hard" from an happiness point of view.

    I think your puppeted city could provide a bit more strategic option. As i said, allowing vanilla purchase in puppets would be a good start. Courthouse need to be "viable", as a previous poster said, it is a dead building for Venice right now.
    Venice is one of the most powerful civilization from a commerce perspective, but it seems gold is only really usefull within your capital, as other options (investing gold into puppets) appears to be too random to be efficient.

    Also, for some reasons, city states dont make any buildings. Don't know if this working as intented (might be one of my mod conflicting with community patch). This makes your first puppets pretty bad.

    Again, i'm not fluent in english, so dont read too much into this post :p. I'm just pointing what i believe could be improved.

    Thanks for reading :)
     
  12. Strigvir

    Strigvir Chieftain

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    You can buy the territory in puppeted cities though.
     
  13. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    correct.
    According to Gazebo the puppeted city prioritizes invested buildings. However I have noticed my puppets in non-venice games completely ignoring the monument, even going to far as to work farming instead of building a monumet, might be a bug.
    Puppets won't build wonders.
    Correct, and that is actually a rather big issue combined with the extremely slowed down bordergrowth in the later versions as well as the puppets ignoring monuments, which provide 25% faster bordergrowth.
    You never need a courthouse in puppeted cities, you only get courthouse-related unhappiness if you annex the city.
     
  14. Edaka

    Edaka Chieftain

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    Alright, I used to believe that puppeted city governors were up to the task of building military buildings like barracks, especially after you've invested into them, until I tried Venice just recently. Let me tell you all the tale of how I invested into barracks in the city of Malacca (later renamed to The Grand Mesa) with pictures:

    Turn 111. I'd invested into barracks a few turns before and noticed that the city hadn't actually started building them, choosing to farm instead. So I decided to take a screenshot.
    Spoiler :

    Turn 123. Alright, seems that the city decided building a caravansary was more important than barracks. I get it, it's a decent building. I may need barracks more, though, since I even invested in them, but it's alright. Let the governor be his own boss for a little.
    Spoiler :

    Turn 129. The caravansary has been built, I wonder if the governor started working on the barracks I've had in plans. Oh, wealth. Okay.
    Spoiler :

    Turn 176. This, after more than 60 turns, is where I gave up my hopes that I'll ever see barracks in this city. Me - 0, AI - 1.
    Spoiler :

    Unfortunately, I haven't had the pleasure to test with other military buildings and I hope the issue is limited to barracks only.

    Also, in my other game as Songhai I noticed that sometimes my well developed puppet wouldn't build anything during some turns, so I thought that it had built everything it could have already. But then I annexed it and some basic buildings that were all somehow related to crime reduction were missing (barracks, constabulary etc., didn't actually take a screenshot and I regret it now).
     
  15. Apostremo

    Apostremo Chieftain

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    IIRC in vanilla baracks was on the black list for puppets, since they won't ever build units so didn't make sense to build. Maybe that was never changed in CBP and it's still on the blacklist?
     
  16. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Chieftain

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    Just started a game as Venice and I've noticed a few problems.

    First, the Doge's Palace doesn't have a Great Art slot anymore. This seems to have happened when the Palace got the new tourism features appended onto it, but that could be coincidence.

    Second, the puppets refuse to build certain buildings. While that was not a very big deal back when it was just XP buildings (reasonable, since they won't be building units), this is a very big deal now that you can build 3 Guilds. Obviously you don't want normal puppets building guilds because you can only have 3, but Venice's puppets should build guilds! Since you can invest in Venice's puppets, could we have investing remove the ban on building guilds? If we can, we might as well also have it do the same for XP buildings since Venice can purchase units in puppets as well, right?
     
  17. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    This was the first thing I asked when the main man mentioned the guilds, and he said it would work perfectly. Clearly one of you are/were wrong :D.
     
  18. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Chieftain

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    Perhaps it is just the investing prioritization that isn't working, and I've gotten unlucky so far? :D
     
  19. Funak

    Funak Chieftain

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    I would give it a try to confirm, but honestly Venice just seems so extremely unappealing.
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I'll take a look. There's nothing specifically preventing puppets from building national wonders or limited buildings.

    G
     

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